If I am not mistaken, Obama mentioned giving a $4000 credit for college tuition in exchange for 100 hours of community service. That sounds like a really good deal to me.
Jedipunk you are absolutely right and there is nothing new about it. You can go to the AmeriCorps website TODAY and see that they offe a colleg credit in exchange for service.
Better than that in helps to instill a work ethic.
A feeling like you are part of a whole.
For so many years, the argument against financial aid is that you get something for nothing. If high school students work after school, in some kind of continuing educational capacity, it serves 2 purposes:
Hey, nice. My husband has to do a bunch of community service to his college, just to receive his diploma. and it's a private college. A tuition break would have been nice, lol.
Greg, they already do that. Welfare recipients must do minimum community service hours--thanks to Clinton; and college students get some of the best loan rates in the country.
There is nothing wrong with community service. If you're involved in extra curricular activities in elementary, middle or high school, chances are you're already doing well over 50 hrs/yr. (girl/boy scouts, soccer, band). As for college, most students will join some club: frat, young Republicans, newspaper; (that's what college students do on their spare time) they too end up doing way more community service than 100 hrs per year.
In college I was part of 3 organizations and there never was a weekend where some sort of service oriented event wasn't taking place. That doesn't mean you go to every event, but I can remember taking part in at least 2 service activities a month for a minimum of 4 hours each (soup kitchen, peer mentoring, litter cleanup) It never felt like a chore, it was something I did with my friends.
Student loans are out there but not everyone can get one without cosigners. I say let the government be responsible to collect from the student if the student doesn't pay it. This way every student can get a loan and go to college.
As for welfare recipients, I haven't heard of them doing community service, maybe it's in certain states.
SEBS... I have been working in the social service field for 4 years since graduating college. I have helped dozens of families get on welfare and financial assistance in the local communities that they live in. I have never, I repeat NEVER, seen any of my families do community service that was expected with welfare. I hope that in other states that community service is expected and enforced, but in Indiana, it doesn't exist. I believe that volunteer service should be expected and enforced when it comes to recieving any kind of community aid, because if we (the taxpayers and those who donate resources) give those items to those who truly need it, then there should be some kind of "giving back." I believe that our Welfare system needs a true "overhaul," because I am tired of paying my taxes for families I help get on welfare and I see no outcome, other than poor spending habits. I believe that if we created a system that helped those in need, then there should be time limit. I know other states have talked about it in the past, but I am not sure if there is a "time limit" for families that have lived on the system for years.
This is from the Dept of Health and Human Services:
The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (P.L. 104-193)
To count toward state work requirements, recipients will be required to participate in unsubsidized or subsidized employment, on-the-job training, work experience, community service, 12 months of vocational training, or provide child care services to individuals who are participating in community service.
I agree student loans should be made more widely available. The requirements are crazy. I also think all students receiving loans should have to take a mandatory course to understand exactly what they're getting into. This would cut down on defaults and make loans more affordable.
I think this is a great idea. Especially in areas where parental involvement is non existent. We work in a small school, and the parent participation is horrible.
Students should be offered a loan at low interest and to use there spare time doing what they please
Hey Greg,
Our country has been doing it that way for years and there are many defaults (me included). You graduate, and can not pay back the ridiculous rates (at one point they wanted $450.00 a month from me) try to work it out and fall into default.
This is a way of having a form of internship. You get work experience before you graduate and that goes on your resume.
Your way breeds laziness and an inability to move into the work force. I can not even begin to explain the amount of people I have seen in my time working that lack discipline. Not only at work but in school. How many college students fart around and then graduate unprepared?
The community service to get welfare issue is a tricky one. I see cases everyday where a person received cash assistance, medicaid or food stamps without having to do some form of work. But that is typically because the individual has been determined to be disabled. I have seen a large number of cases where an individual must do community service in order to get food stamps or cash assistance though. I still havent figured out how DJFS makes the determination who has to work and who doesnt.
I must say our welfare system needs overhauling and community service should be enforced. I live in NJ and I guess they are much stricter because I know people who work for Section 8 and the welfare program--you will be taken off the rolls and lose your benefits if you aren't working, attending school or doing community service.
Kind of a different situation (only a little.. sort of the end game of the situation)
I happen to agree with you. Welfare sucks. My mother was on it for 5 years after she left our father. She went to school while raising 3 kids (including one autistic) while on the system. I babysat at 12 until 1 in the morning to buy myself clothes and supplies for school. Getting off the system is hard. The minute you get a job you are cut off. There is a 2 to 4 week leeway before you can pay the cost of living.
It sickens me that someone who can not read or write considers them self to be handicap. My brother is 37 years old, autistic and works 3 to 4 days a week in maintenance. Granted it is a special New York State program, but he works.
I don't like excuses. I believe in a hand up, not out.
I say let the government be responsible to collect from the student if the student doesn't pay it.
they have that already
all my loans were consolidated under the gov.. the gov is pretty cool in that you really dont have to pay them back for ages and they wont harrass ya too bad. or cost you too much.
many states like mine now offer full scholarships to those who maintain a B average.
last how can you attack this when it is voluntary.. no one is forcing the kid to do 100 hours for $4000.. just liek no one forced my friends to joint he military for college money.. just like no one ois forcing anyone to join the america coprs program for college money.. and in my state..t hey wont force you to teach for a year to cut your student laons down.
I say anythign that offers more ability for kids to go to college is a good thing.. and anythign that makes them actually put in effort to get it, is a great thing.
Kids tend to be more concerned about new found freedom, partiing and getting laid, that it would be good to make kids prove they want to go to college.
thats what happened to me, I was given money and didnt appreciate it, dropped out after a year of hellacious partiing.. when i wanted to go back to school there was no money, so i had to work for it.. lets just say i took it far more seriously when i had to work for it.
$4000 in a tuition credit represents an investment in the future of our nation. I'm fine with that. It's a far cry from giving these students cash in their pockets. Not to mention the lessons they'll receive in hard work and patriotism. Money well spent, if you ask me.
I have a friend who is married and has three kids. They moved to Colorado so her husband could get his degree in aeronomics. She got a contracting job with the government (it's how I met her). The job didn't offer any health benefits, nor did her husband's school. But because her husband was in school (60 hours a week), they didn't qualify for any sort of state assistance, even for her children. She only made $11/hour and her husband couldn't get a job because he had to care for the kids when she was working since they couldn't afford after school care. If she had been offered a chance to do community service in exchange for welfare or healthcare for her kids, she would have jumped at it - but no one ever mentioned it to her. Essentially, because she worked hard and her husband was working to better himself to provide a better life for his family, they couldn't get assistance. If her husband had been a deadbeat, they could have.
Luckily, she was hired full time with the government and now receives those excellent benefits for her whole family. Her husband has received a grant from Lockheed Martin to continue his education and will have a job with them when he graduates. So, it's worked out for them, but theirs is a very happy story. Unfortunately, my friend's diabetes went untreated for so long that she now has related illnesses that will cost more time and money to be treated, and could easily have been prevented had they the care or money to get it done.
$4000 for 100 hours of community service? That $40 an hour ro $80,000 annual rate. Not bad pay for doing "volunteer" work.
I did the AmeriCorps program. It was challenging, but worth it. You get a small living stipend during your year of service and an education award that is a little over $4,000. However currently in order to get the education award from AmeriCorps, you must do at least 1700 hours of community service in 10/12 months.
I don't know where all of these commentors think we are going to get the "free college credit money" for millions of students, but I am pretty sure taxpayers will somehow have to pay for these college tuition credits. Community service should be reseved for welfare recipients and criminals. We are now beginning to see the true Barack Obama plans for this country after he has been elected and it looks like he wants us all to put in our free time for the good of the state. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Maybe Russia following the 1917 Communist Revolution or China following the October1949 Communist Revolution. We have fought wars to stop Communism, Facism and Socialism form spreading all over the world and now we promote the socialist ideals as a means to getting a college education. I worked full time and went to college part time with no extra help from the state or federal govenment and I am now sending my kids to college with no extra help from the state or federal govenment. I surely do not want to pay for all the millions of other students out there that think they should get $40.00 an hour doing make work jobs to pay for their tuition. Why don't these students go get real jobs that actually benefit a business or people and pay for their college tuition with their own hard earned money. This is called Capitalism, it has worked wonderfully for this country since the 1776 American Revolution. I guess Barack Obama's lack of experience in running this govenment is starting to show. I hope Obama knows a thing or two about how Democracy works
How about taking money from programs that don't work? And what's so wrong with the taxpayers investing in education more? Right now we're spending over $5 billion a month in Iraq - so if we cut spending there (or end it with an eventual withdrawl) then that would give us quite a bit of money to put towards this program.
I'm still amazed at how low a priority education is to many in this country. I don't have children and never plan on having children, but I know that a quality education is so crucial in a society - without it we have nothing. I'm willing for more of my money to go to education if it means giving our young people a chance at creating a better America and a better world.
Sounds like another socialistic idea. Maybe we should require people who are collecting welfare check now to work. It also sounds a little to much like his "community organizer Acorn" ideals are showing. Very scary. I really don't like the sounds of his ideas. To dictator like.
President-Elect Barack Obama spoke frequently during his campaign about his plans to assist with college education, through community service. This is not a new idea just because he won the election. It sounds like there were too many people putting him down, rather than listening to him. Not surprising.
What is wrong with community service? Do youngsters today (those 29 & under believe that everything is supposed to be handed to you? I call your generation the "Entitled Generation". You don't seem to know the meaning of hard work. You don't seem to care about others. From what I can see, you walk around with your Blackberries, talking on your bluetooth, running into people because you're completely self-absorbed. It's "me me me me", "screw you", "what do I get out of it", blah, blah, blah. All the while expecting everything for nothing. It's actually quite a disgrace.
My generation (I'm 47, btw) understands hard work, sacrifice, and work ethic. We feel pride in a job well done, and don't expect anything in return. We understand that those who come behind us will inherit what we've done and we do our best to do right by them. We understand that our elders are our history and should be revered and taken care of.
If only each person on this vine stopped complaining about this and actually did something, like volunteer at a senior center for an hour a week, or offer to take a neighbor to a doctor appointment, how much better you would feel about yourself and what a blessing it would be to the recipient of your kindness. Then if you tried it again the next week, with the same result . . . in no time at all your "community service" hours would be complete and you would have made a HUGE difference.
Many hands make light work! So stop complaining and get up and do something! You might actually like it!
Wow...I thought the right was the patriotic crowd. You guys are sounding like a bunch of spoiled children. What? If it's war, killing people, and blowing S*** up you're OK with that but if it's something as mundane as citizenship, a little effort and making a better country all you can do is scream oppression?
I see your colors from all the arguments here; laziness, self-interest and bullying the weak has never really been the hallmark of a patriotic citizen, but it sure fits the bill for overindulged, uncared for, and undereducated young-uns.
Seriously, folks, if you haven't got the drift - the world is moving away from that type of thinking and there's not a whole lot you can do to stop it. And before you think this is a power thing (as that's your bag) it's really more of a human development thing.
Quit kicking the people who are down and out and start acting like adults.
you are a LIAR, you completely reword in your description cting like you copied it word for word, stating this is required where as if you read the article it states he will ask you to do this. nice you are a piece of trash!
Lush is correct. Reread the real article. Jedipunk duped us. What a waste of time and energy. I feel foolish and take part of the blame, but Jedipunks articles will no longer get any of my attention. Worse than the "news" we get on TV. Shame.
If I am not mistaken, Obama mentioned giving a $4000 credit for college tuition in exchange for 100 hours of community service. That sounds like a really good deal to me.
You are not mistaken; that is indeed the offer he proposed before. I wish I made $40/hr. Of course, now that the election is over and the votes are no longer needed, the numbers will probably change dramatically.
. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Actual^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require
Logdump. Have you noticed he hasn't been active in the thread for his own article. He certainly intended to misinform. click the excamation point above and to the right of headline and click innacurate.
The very cool part of this.... Finally I am seeing a lot less of the personal attacks, a lot more discussion really trying to get to the facts.
As for the public service thing. It looks like it has been clarified above, but Obama's idea does not require service. It offers an additional alternative for those trying to get an education. You can participate and get the benefits, or not. Your choice. This is no different than college programs/loan forgiveness for joining the military, the Peace Corp, or any number of other programs that both sides of the aisle have supported for years.
As for the comments that it must be funded. Sure it must. This is an investment in America. Again, no different than the GI Bill or many other programs that incentivize national needs, help people and build our infrastructure at the same time.
As for student loans instead. Why? They are already offered. And NO, you don't need a cosigner, particularly for the federally guaranteed student loans. Completely private student loans are different, with higher interest rates, etc. Let the buyer beware. The default rate on student loans is atrocious, but per the comment above that the government should enforce collection, they do. Student loans are one of the few debts that can't normally be forgiven by bankruptcy... You can't easily run away from them. Although a relative of mine once declared bankruptcy and somehow was able to get his/her student loan included(I found it distasteful, but also know that this is not the norm..).
As for a post I saw above where someone complained that they couldn't do it because they both worked and went to school so didn't have time. I have no sympathy. As noted in another post, this is the equivalent of 80 dollars an hour. While I was working toward finishing my Bachelor's and on my Master's degree, I was working 60 hours per week and taking 20+ credits. I also know personally of many single mothers who wanted to get ahead, so were working minimum wage jobs, going to school AND rasing a child. We would have LOVED to have been able to get some additional help by having the opportunity to serve the public AND make 80 dollars an hour. People should not expect a free lunch and it all boils down to how bad you really want it.
I understand that with the cost of an education these days, it can be more difficult to do it on your own. As important, there is a dangerous trap in that student loans are available in such large amounts that make it way too easy for young people to slip into a huge debt before they ever start their professional careers. I wonder if that easy access to student loans may be just another form of the situation that got us into the housing crisis, where easy credit drove up prices. But that is another topic. The bottom line is that life is not necessarily easy, and it definitely should not be a free ride. It is also possible to do it. People are doing it all the time.
My beliefs are quite liberal in terms of compassion for others and for the most part consider myself a strong Democrat. At the same time, I understand and agree with the concerns about personal responsibility. If we keep the more sane dialoge I am seeing on a lot of this board, we can see that if we get past the blind partisanship that has been so venemous over the last couple of months, we can educate each other on the facts AND come to see that at heart, we really share most of the same concerns and values.
One last stab.... The cynical posts from the "Independents" who point to the politics and say it is all cr** so we should be revolutionaries or hermits or something. Again, personal responsibility. The system is what it is, and we are all a part of it whether we like it or not. We all share responsibility for what we end up with, and if we don't like it, we should stand up for what we believe in and try to make it better. As bleak a picture as some would like to make of our culture and our country, as a person who has done extensive travel in multiple continents around the world, I can assure you that most of the rest of the world would love to have what we have come to take for granted.
I guess for you Right Wing Republican Conservatives CHRISTIANs, many of you want to sit at home watch Limbaugh, Henneny, Fox news, and other Right Consevative Channels and mediums complaining about Liberalism, Decent, honor, tolerance, diversity, ethics, morality, Socialism etc.
The rest of us will be participating in some way to help rebuild United States and make it better. Many Right Wing Republican Conservatives Christians are selfish to the end.
BTW, we don't need your help. We will ensure the Left Liberal media will be aware lazy selfish behinds not help rebuidling United States. My guess Christianity to you is just for show and something to do on Sundays and Bible Whining nights about the world not going your way.
It is divisive inflammatory comments like you just made that are actually part of the problem right along with some "right wingers". I happen to be a Christian that took the time to research and clear up a divisive and inaccurate article about Obamas plan. I did not vote for him but he is now my president-elect and I will support him when I agree with him and question him when I do not. I will pray for him and pray for my country. You see, it is not just one side that is always wrong. Its the trouble makers on both sides. I'm sure you don't want to be one of them. I challenge you to be open minded enough to not be bigoted toward a terminology and look at each person as an individual. I can then show the same respect for you. There are many Christians that make me cringe to call myself a Christian and there are many that make me proud to be one. But how people behave, regardless of their belief system speaks volumes as to their motive and intent.
I read the article. What is so different from the seed entry?
These various corps sound like good ideas.
Do you know how many injured veterans there are today??? Do you know how much an Occupational Therapist makes??? This could inspire someone young (and full of energy) to go into a field of study with valuable experience. Maybe even specialize in something.
Do you know how many older folks have no one to care for them?
Do you know how many kids are on the street, while their parents are working 2 or 3 jobs?
How many times, in the course of a day, do you see someone just toss something on the ground? The response has been to criminalize it. Either by fine or jail. What if you make it that persons job to clean up? Put them in charge of an area to keep clean.
The young do have pride, they just need to be given the job or opportunity to express it. Accomplishment is better than any drug.
require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.
nowhere in the original article does it state "require" yet the author transposed it into his headline and body. I have since been to the Obama website, which does not use require. It is all voluntary as it stands. All my posts objecting to it were based on "required". I have no problem with it now that I have eliminated the authors additions.
And I do know the amount of "latchkey kids" out there, as many of them that my daughters go to school with seek refuge at my home, where I and my wife watch over them and give them the same good guidence we give our daughters.
I agree with your above post, but I already take good care of my daughters and teach them well in all these areas, we volunteer where and when I choose, so when I felt the government was going to step in and take my freedom of choice because others were not responsible, i was unable to agree. Sorry for the separate post but having computer problems :)
nowhere in the original article does it state "require" yet the author transposed it into his headline and body. I have since been to the Obama website, which does not use require.
I think the headline is definitely misleading.
However, to be fair to Jedipunk, the original version of the description of the 50 hours did include the word "require."
And I do know the amount of "latchkey kids" out there, as many of them that my daughters go to school with seek refuge at my home, where I and my wife watch over them and give them the same good guidence we give our daughters.
Richard,
This is one area where having college students volunteer would work. When I was taking college social welfare classes years ago, we had to have so many volunteer hours. One thing I did was volunteer at a home close to one of the cities elementary schools, what I did was basically have groups of kids who came there after school, instead of wandering around or going home alone. We could help them with their homework, give them snacks, organize games, just give them some place to be and something to do.
I posted the link directly to Obama's service program above. No "requirement", and I would be willing to give benefit of the doubt if Jedipunk bothered to follow up here on his own article, but for now I only have the article he posted, and a misrepresentation of his headline and body. In the meantime the commentors on this thread (including me previously) are going haywire with the misinformation. However my main issue is the misinformation itself. Although I previously was obviously angered by this, Jedipunks intentions are at this time secondary. Funny thing is, I'm not even a Democrat, I just want the ability to comment on the truth, not fiction.
If you click on the "article" link Jedi provided, it goes directly to the transitional website for the new administration. What he posted is copied verbatim from Obama's change.gov website, which does in fact use the word "require" in connection to Jr. and Sr. High students.
Perhaps he stated something different on another website; if so, there needs to be some clarification on PE Obama's part.
I just clicked on his article four the fourth time this morning and all I see is "set a goal",
what am I missing? I am not, obviously, trying to cause problems as you know from my agreement with your previous posts, but I cannot find required anywhere concerning middle, high school.
Richard, I just clicked on the "view article" button again, and it takes me directly to the change.gov website, under "america serves". What I'm viewing is exactly what he posted.
However, when I type in the web address, the wording is completely different. Not sure what happened.
They changed the text. The copy you are seeing when you follow the link is likely your local cache and the copy you get from typing directly is pulling new.
Why they changed it could be the result of the flood of people seeing it and wondering what the hell is going on and seeing our comments.
Jedipunk is correct. When he seeded the article the website read exactly as it does above. Evidently the website has since been changed. As all my quotes on this thread were taken from the original seeded article just like Jedi's quotes. I have a hard time believing anyone would think everyone yesterday would have missed this ;-)
I am a little bit happier with the way it currently reads:-)
you are a LIAR, you completely reword in your description cting like you copied it word for word, stating this is required where as if you read the article it states he will ask you to do this. nice you are a piece of trash!
Sorry, you feel that way. Had you taken the time to investigate you would know that I seeded my article before they changed their site.
I already do about 70 hours a year and wish I could do more. Helping others makes me feel closer to my community and I've met a lot of interesting people along the way. Community service is the basis of the american spirit in my opinion, and I love the idea of initiatives that get young people to get more involved in their communities.
What about this reminds you of slavery. There is no requirement, just opportunity. There are many children in this country that cannot afford college and that number is rising with layoffs and the credit crunch. I for one will encourage my son as much as possible to participate although we have a statewide scholarship program in my state.
I was always raised that the things you work for have more value than things that are given to you.
If the government is willing to provide you an education and opportunity, you have a problem with the requirement to put in a little sweat equity?
America isn't about service to the state.
Today you are right but if you look at the times when this country was at its greatest it was all about service and sacrifice on behalf of the country. Isn't that what heroes are made of? If you don't believe that, visit Ft Sam Houston and tell that to a soldier in rehab after returning from war.
Our military academys have been doing it for years. West Point, the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy ALL require service to country at the completion of your education.
"If the government is willing to provide you an education and opportunity, you have a problem with the requirement to put in a little sweat equity?"
The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
"Our military academys have been doing it for years. West Point, the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy ALL require service to country at the completion of your education."
You are mistaken. This isn't service to the country. Military personnel properly go in the military for selfish reasons--to protect themselves, their families, and the country that protects their rights--not because they want to kill themselves for the Fuhrer.
The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
So AR you are saying that with the global competition and this country falling behind in every level of education, our government should just take a hands-off attitude? With those thoughts, this country will be driven into the ground. I guess more of a caste system would be more to your liking.
You are mistaken. This isn't service to the country. Military personnel properly go in the military for selfish reasons--to protect themselves, their families, and the country that protects their rights--not because they want to kill themselves for the Fuhrer.
Uh excuse me? What makes you think that everyone goes into the Naval Academy or any other military school for 'Love of Country' ior any other branch of the military. It is a well known fact that the majority of those who enter the military in an enlisted state are from backgrounds that provide little other opportunity. Look at the disproportionate number of Blacks in the military as opposed to the actual population pre 9/11. With your reasoning, no one would ever leave the military, it was primarily about opportunity before the upswing post 9/11.
That being said, with your reasoning no one would leave the military before retirement and the enlistment numbers wouldn't take such a hit in good economic times.
"The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
So AR you are saying that with the global competition and this country falling behind in every level of education, our government should just take a hands-off attitude? With those thoughts, this country will be driven into the ground. I guess more of a caste system would be more to your liking.
You are mistaken. This isn't service to the country. Military personnel properly go in the military for selfish reasons--to protect themselves, their families, and the country that protects their rights--not because they want to kill themselves for the Fuhrer.
Uh excuse me? What makes you think that everyone goes into the Naval Academy or any other military school for 'Love of Country' ior any other branch of the military. It is a well known fact that the majority of those who enter the military in an enlisted state are from backgrounds that provide little other opportunity. Look at the disproportionate number of Blacks in the military as opposed to the actual population pre 9/11. With your reasoning, no one would ever leave the military, it was primarily about opportunity before the upswing post 9/11.
That being said, with your reasoning no one would leave the military before retirement and the enlistment numbers wouldn't take such a hit in good economic times."
There is not such thing as global competition. Competition only exists among individuals who want to compete in something. I am getting educated and pursuing my career, and I hope others do the same. But we aren't merchantinialists--it isn't America vs. the world. It is individuals living their lives.
You haven't answered by argument. You are only providing more evidence for me. Since many people go into the military for money, they do it for proper, selfish reasons, not for selfless sacrifice to America.
Slavery in a totalitarian was where this country has been headed under the Bush administration. The exception being, the 'government' was Corporate America. Evidenced by record profits and stagnant wages.
slaveryn. , pl. -ies . The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household
I know of no better definition for the corporations raping the economy while rewarding of workers was virtually non-existent. If stagnant wages don't convince you, just ask migrant workers.
"Slavery in a totalitarian was where this country has been headed under the Bush administration. The exception being, the 'government' was Corporate America. Evidenced by record profits and stagnant wages."
Bush is anti-capitalist and anti-business. Businesses have been under assault under Bush. For example: Sarbanes-Oxley, the call for windfall taxes, calls for CEO pay to be cut, not being able to drill in ANWR or off shore, massive regulations on business, the fed, the community reinvestment act, fannie mae and freddie mac, etc.
Bush and McCain and Obama are helping this country go toward socialism.
"If the government is willing to provide you an education and opportunity, you have a problem with the requirement to put in a little sweat equity?"
YOU SAID :
"The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
Never once did I say it was altruism but that the opportunity to further yourself has ALWAYS been provided by our Military Academies. Why should that concept not be expanded, unless of course you are a proponent to continue handouts.
NOW: Global competiton is a true fact. Without being able to compete globally, turning out jobs in the sciences, and yes economic fields, this country would be left at the mercy of those who seem to be outpacing us in these fields. Our health care and economic health would be at the mercy of the willingness of these countries to leave us in peace with our uneducated majorities. And you think that would happen?
You say you are completing your education. Do you use any Government help? Even Federal Student loans? If so you will simply pay this back in a different way. If not, you are among the lucky few who have liquid resources to do so. And please don't say that you worked hard to get the money to pay for your entire education. Without education, there are no jobs, that has never been more evident than it is today. Or is it that you just have a problem wiht a different form of payback?
The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
AynRand:
You are talking about 2 centuries ago. You are talking about before the Industrial Revolution, World Wars, Atomic Bombs, Nuclear Age, Microsoft Revolution, Sexual Revolution.
We are living in a different time.
Women don't just stay at home and pop out babies.
They are in the work place, competing with men.
America was founded on pushing others off the land and taking it over, and yes SLAVERY.
We have to compete with the world now (not against it) and to do that America MUST produce stronger, intelligent, capable individuals.
We must also produce people who can function.
Have you seen the condition of our youth.
What the hell have you done to change it???
This is a step in the right direction.
You need to pull your head out the sands of the past and face the future.
"Slavery in a totalitarian was where this country has been headed under the Bush administration. The exception being, the 'government' was Corporate America. Evidenced by record profits and stagnant wages."
Bush is anti-capitalist and anti-business. Businesses have been under assault under Bush. For example: Sarbanes-Oxley, the call for windfall taxes, calls for CEO pay to be cut, not being able to drill in ANWR or off shore, massive regulations on business, the fed, the community reinvestment act, fannie mae and freddie mac, etc.
Bush and McCain and Obama are helping this country go toward socialism
Under the Bush administration the tax cuts and corporate deregulation at a failed attempt at trickle down economics does not support to your argument. What it points to is the caste system you seemed determine to continue to drive this country to. A society of have and have nots where the have nots serve the haves. That has NEVER been what this country was about, at least not since the Civil Rights movement. Since true slavery has been outlawed and there is no longer a race of people singled out to be the lower caste, your theory holds no water.
Now the division seems to be based on income and Corporate America and the last administration seemed to want to entrench that as much as possible.
The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
So basically Ayn, we should continue to sit on our butts while countries around the world pass us in education? I think that it would benefit our children, whether we have the money to put them through school or not, to perform some sort of service, especially if it provides them the opportunity to get further in their education.
Since many people go into the military for money, they do it for proper, selfish reasons, not for selfless sacrifice to America.
As a member of the military who has served for 15 years, you have just insulted me and if you made the type of money that we make you would never say that we join for money. I could make two probably three time more outside the military. I don't consider myself a selfish person and I don't do things for selfish reasons. That's okay you are entiltled to your opinion. Have a nice day!
Well, we tried unfettered capitalism and it resulted in a huge bill that is as oppressive to me as the totalitarian state you identify. Unfortunately you "me first" types are just too damn greedy, unethical and immoral for the rest of us. Your party is over, crawl back into the woodwork with the rest of the pests and take "The Fountainhead" with you.
by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.
No more, no less. Could you cite a source saying this is voluntary? And not his voluntary for college tax credit....since middle schoolers and high schoolers are not paying tuition for college.
Chum: I realize that. My son's high school has several different diploma's with different endorsements, one of them is community service. It is not required, but if you do the service you get an endorsement on your diploma for it.
It is incorrect to say it is voluntary, when the word "required" is part of the sentence. If it is a requirement to advance in grade or receive your diploma (which I am fine with) than it really isn't voluntary, is it? Or are you saying earning the diploma is voluntary?
For a group of people who claim to live their lives by logic and reason, the inability to see the world as an evolving place, the constant morality plays, and utter devotion to the supreme being: the real rand, must make day to day life impossible. Maybe her reanimated coprse should have ran under the U.S. taxpayers ticket.
There is literally no problem with this IF IT IS VOLUNTARY. And it sounds like it is. It sounds like you can CHOOSE to either pay your tuition in full, or get a tuition break (payment) to do community service.
This is a much better plan that that which is already implemented in many colleges across the states...they already FORCE students to do it as part of their curriculum. Not fulfilling the community service agreement means no graduation, no diploma.
There is literally no problem with this IF IT IS VOLUNTARY.
I agree.
And it sounds like it is. It sounds like you can CHOOSE to either pay your tuition in full, or get a tuition break (payment) to do community service.
Based on what in this article? Could you site where it says that the those in middle school or high school get a break on tuition and through what means? All it says is what it says, and not once does the article use the word voluntary.
AmeriCorps is voluntary, but is it still voluntary if you are required to serve in it? No, then it is fulfilling a requirement. I have no problem with community service being tied to a diploma. A diploma is voluntary in the sense that there is no law requiring one, and I think every state has a legal drop-out age. However, middle schoolers are not in the voluntary stage, because they are legally required to go to school, so nothing about requiring them to perform 50 hours of community service is voluntary.
I conceed his plans call for action that is not voluntary, but what is wrong with students being made to do community service. It builds character and gets people out of individualistic thinking and more about community. Its not a bad thing. How will this be bad for children?
As for college students, the only way I see this being enforced is tied to Federal Loans or Grants. Again I have no problem with that. What wrong with community service
2.20 I think we should all contribute to society on a volunteer basis. Make the opportunities available, but don't force the service. Now, there are exceptions to this rule. I do believe in the draft in the time of national emergency in order to form an army. There are things the government must require for the sake of the nation. Public service is not one of them. It becomes dangerously akin to trying to make us all look the same, act the same and think the same. I'm sure that is not your intention. Individual rights is a good thing for the country. In our freedom we are inspired to serve our country in ways a government wonk making up a list of required tasks could never imagine. (I'm not spamming, just too lazy to retype and reword)
AynRand what is wrong with doing something for your country? Or the betterment of our childrens education.
Heck, going to a kindergarten and reading to some kids a few times a week, will not hurt you!
Going to shelve books at the public library is not going to kill you!
Helping an elderly person get to the doctor if they have no transportation or bringing them a meal is not going to hurt you!
Jeeze! If you want to be so seperate from society, why don't you find you a deserted island somewhere? You are part of this country just like the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with doing your civic duty. If our sons and daughters can be sent off to a war they should not be fighting (Iraq), then the least you could do is help out here on the homefront!
4real: I have a couple of problems....first of all posters saying it is voluntary without a way to back it up. My second is that too much is unexplained. Required for what? Do the parents get to choose where their children will be serving and in what way? Will service thru the church count? It is stepping on too many toes without any explaination right now. My family does community service, but does it where we see the need and where it reflects our values and morals. I do not want the government telling me, a responsible parent, how to raise my child, what values and morals to instill, etc. Do you?
Slippery Slope! That's my favorite phrase these days. You start down a path and you loose your footing. Gravity takes over and down you fall. It is the beginning of the path to the "downfall" of personal freedom. Compelling service at this level in programs constructed by -- gosh -- a government employee who has no vision perhaps? That's the least offensive scenario. Soon we are compelled to do all sorts of things and suddenly we are slaves of the government, compelled to do all sorts of things all hours of the day. FREEDOM... Give me liberty or give me death!!!
Thank you. This is what I am talking about. It does not have to be military service per say, but the people who have served a couple years (in non-combat or combat) take to college far different than those who do. They enter the work place with a different ethic. A purpose, a focus.
lol only a stupid country doesnt provide education.. it is one of the few gov programs that produces more dollars than it takes in.
hey ayarand..remember northern exposure?
you know many companies do that as well.. i had a company that would trade service for schooling. And you have a choice..a nd as pointed out before.. it is nothign new.. you really cant get much more american
I hear you on the liberty aspects. Great discussion!
Here's a thought, minors already have limited liberties. Kids wouldn't care whether the nation or the parent was mandating it...they won't like it either way. If they are provide some freedom of choice within the mandate, isn't that the same as allowing electives for graduation?
It does state for middle school and high school students, those of whom don't need a tuition credit just yet. As a mother of a child in middle school and 3 in high school I can't imagine what a nightmare that could be. With a full course load and 3 hours of homework a night I wonder where they will find the time to fit in 50 hours before the end of their senior year, considering one is a sophomore now and the other a senior and get credit for it while they are working part-time to start saving for college. It's a great concept but forcing them to fulfill this requirement before they graduate is just adding more pressure on them. Who do you think is going to drive them around while they do this ? It has nothing to do with lazy parents since most are out there busting their butts to put food on the table, let alone trying to provide a college education to their kids. This $4,000 tuition credit doesn't touch jack when college is $12,000-$20,000 a year !
but the people who have served a couple years (in non-combat or combat) take to college far different than those who do. They enter the work place with a different ethic. A purpose, a focus.
How do we differentiate between a student who has worked their butt off to get into a good college and hasn't had time to pick up trash or read to kindergarteners, from someone who worked at McD's, got barely passing grades, BUT spent a few weeks here and there doing community service? You think one is more motivated than the other to excel? You think that an adult returning to school while holding down a full-time job has less motivation or focus because he/she doesn't have 100 extra hours?
My husband is returning to school, while I work full time, and I would like to finish my teaching degree when he's done and working full time. We both work at our church (teaching, working with youth, etc.), which some would consider community service. Do we qualify for a tax credit? Who decides what is/isn't community service?
There are too many questions and no real answers yet.
Honestly though, 50 hours a week over a 9 month school year averages out to less than two hours a week. That's as easy as staying after school for a day or two and tutoring somebody.
As to the "There are no real answers" I'd respond that "This isn't yet a real program." It's good that these concerns are coming out, but if this outline doesn't address them yet I don't think that's a condemnation of the idea. Since Obama doesn't even get sworn in till late January, I think there's plenty of time to flesh this out.
I believe if mandatory community service is what Obama wants then let him go to the welfare recipients that are healthy and the prisons, of course with the prisoners they would have to start the Chain Gang again.
Eric: You are correct. People are getting bent out of shape over a policy idea that hasn't even been developed. Nothing has been decided. Relax people and let the new administration take shape.
Great to stay on top of things but to persecute before all the facts have been laid out before us is just silly.
You obviously don't understand the concept of slavery. Slaves aren't given any choices.
What's wrong with teaching our children to give to their communities? I think it's a damned good idea and one that will teach them to care about where they live, not just live there.
If there were a program like this available when I was going to school, I would have JUMPED at the opportunity.
Silly Greg, Ever see those orange jumpsuits on the side of the road picking up garbage? Those aren't the girl scouts, they're prisoners...no chain gang needed, just a burly corrections officer and a rifle.
Okay, all the comments above are interesting. I have a huge problem with demanding community service of any high school students. Why? Because as someone above pointed out, h.s. students are already overburdened with classes, homework mandatory clubs (if you want to get into college, you MUST belong to teams or clubs..no way out of that), and on top of that, who has to cart these kids around if they aren't yet 17, or can't afford their own car?
As for college students, again, I see no problem with it if it was done on a voluntary basis in which tuition credits were at stake.
Look, helping the community is a noble thing...a moral thing...the right thing to do...but at what point does it become burdensome or akin to indentured servitude? Look at it this way...if we required community service before we would give people welfare payments, or food stamps, or any other form of aid, it would cause an outrage.
Community service requirements are causing my husband a very real burden. He works his rear end off - a good 10 hours, minimum per day (at the office. That doesn't count how many nights he's had to log on while at home and fix problems remotely until 2 or 3 in the morning). Then he has his CAPS program (adult college), which takes up 2 evenings per week (1 for classes and one for a mandatory study group). We have three kids. yeah, he really needs to be doing the silly things on his community service list like scraping gum off sidewalks. LMAO). And he gets to pay $350 or so per credit for the "honor").
Sorry bigger I dont buy the argument that community service would be a burden on high schoolesr. They still have find time to party they can find an hour to handout food at a shelter
People keep posting how we should be focusing on welfare recipents and prisoners. How about focusing on keeping kids from getting on welfare and out of jail. We have all acknowledge kids dont always learn life lessons they need at home. What is wrong with exposing them to work and responisbility. I cant believe we are arguing this. An ounce of prevention............
How do we differentiate between a student who has worked their butt off to get into a good college and hasn't had time to pick up trash or read to kindergarteners, from someone who worked at McD's, got barely passing grades, BUT spent a few weeks here and there doing community service? You think one is more motivated than the other to excel? You think that an adult returning to school while holding down a full-time job has less motivation or focus because he/she doesn't have 100 extra hours?
-I would imagine GPA and test scores (ACT/SAT) would probably sort out any potential "injustices" you might be worrying about mate ;-)
mandatory clubs (if you want to get into college, you MUST belong to teams or clubs..no way out of that)
When I was in High School (like 8 years ago... not a long time) Key Club was one of the best clubs for a college resume, through which I did a lot of community service, up to and including Habitat for Humanity. It isn't hard to integrate this stuff into the existing framework, especially when 100 hours over 9 months is like 3-4 hours a week.
I think people are overthinking this community service thing. If you're in high school, spend two days a week as an assistant coach for your school's basketball team. Or tutor somebody twice a week. Read to some kindergarteners who are waiting for their parents to pick them up. Again, twice a week.
It does state for middle school and high school students, those of whom don't need a tuition credit just yet. As a mother of a child in middle school and 3 in high school I can't imagine what a nightmare that could be. With a full course load and 3 hours of homework a night I wonder where they will find the time to fit in 50 hours before the end of their senior year,
There are 8,760 hours in a year, and over 4 years of high school, that's 35,040 hours. And you're saying 50 hours is a problem? That's 1/2 hour a week. They can handle 1/2 an hour less of Facebook or Wii.
It is when my oldest is home to watch my youngest after school so I don't have to pay $120 a week to put him in a BASE program. What really irritates me is the view on teenagers. Not all are out there drinking and hanging around the neighborhood. My oldest son is a fantastic kid. He had great grades and will be graduating early this year. He doesn't run the neighborhood at night and he is most certainly not unsupervised. By the time I get home at night it's already 6:00PM. He has spent 3 hours watching his 2 brothers and to me this is family service. Your assuming that every kid is coming home and playing on "Facebook or Wii" but what you don't know is my son worked his butt off to get to graduate and will spend anywhere from 2-4 hours doing homework aside from his family obligations. I can barely afford groceries besides a Wii. Add to this working 24-30 hours a week. There are so many families like this now, especially with 2 parents working.
Some adults need to get off their soap-box and realize that there are decent kids out there and parents that are raising them community conscience. Kim, until you have walked in my shoes you have no right to assume my kids can handle more than what they are doing now. I never said we don't already do community volunteering, but to make it madatory is pressure not needed.
America was founded on notions of common welfare. Haven't you heard about it? It's in the Declaration of Independence. This nation does not and never did promote total and complete independence of the individual from the needs of the community around him or her. For this form of total anarchy libertarianism, you would have to do what Marlon Brando and Raymond Burr did and buy your own island in the South Pacific.
Ayn Rand's theories are very attractive in the abstract, but, like any other utopian system, impossible to implement. No utopian system can ever account for human frailty and fault.
Okay, would you all back an employer-mandatory community service plan? Your employer says that if you want to continue your employment you need to do 2 hours per week of community service...
Yeah, I am not down with required community service to the state. In exchange for an education though it is a great idea. Student loans should be allowed to be paid down voluntarily with community service. Everybody wins!
To take it one step further, how about people that want to work but can't find a job. Shouldn't the state offer them some level of employment suitable to their physical condition? Wouldn't that be cheaper and more productive than welfare? The Job corps is fine but that is geared to the young. What about middle aged or older citizens that still have something to contribute?
Okay, would you all back an employer-mandatory community service plan? Your employer says that if you want to continue your employment you need to do 2 hours per week of community service...
Is that a good thing or a bad one?
Which to me is ABSOLUTELY irrelevant to this discussion. First of ALL it is NOT going to be governemnt mandated to perform community to service to attend college. What difference would it make if it was. If you have seem a college app lately, they LOOK for students who have performed community service and it is considered during the acceptance progress.
If you want FEDERAL MONEY to attend college, you will need to give back something in exchange.
Do me a favor, give a different alternative that will not tax arecent grad with 10s of thousands of dollars of debt upon graduation while at the same time giving back to the community.
I believe you can still get yourself up to your eyeballs in debt if you prefer.
First of ALL it is NOT going to be governemnt mandated to perform community to service to attend college.
No just to graduate from junior high school and high school. people will still be free to attend any college that does not require more than a sixth grade education.
If you want FEDERAL MONEY to attend college, you will need to give back something in exchange.
What you are giving back is essentially worthless, at the very least nowhere near the amount being paid out. So it is not an exchange of services for an equal exchange of money so the give back part doesn't really hold up. How about they give back the 4,000 within x years of graduation.
Where in the world does it mention anything bout being a requirement to graduate from high school...lol!! This is the time period in which the community service can be done.
Secondly, what makes you think contributing to the community is 'worthless'. Ever built a house for habitat, participate in Big Bros or Big Sisters. There is no value that can be put on that type of service. Unless of course the only value in your life is in your wallet.
Think about the television commercial where I think the first guy is trying to open a dore and someone comes by and gets it for him because his hands are full, this continues through a line of people. Each person extending the kindness shown to them to the next. Random acts, the last one in line being the first... think about it
Why not pay it back over X number of years. Looked at the default rate on student loans lately?.. yep something for nothing.
Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year. They will develop national guidelines for service- learning and will give schools better tools both to develop programs and to document student experience.
the service ithat is given will be nowhere near the $40 dollars an hour after taxes especially when you consider the costs of administering and supervising and training and insuring the servants.
If it were worth the money why not take the more direct and effective method. Raise taxes by the amount needed to do the work and then do the work. The reason is that society on the whole does not value the work enough to fund it.
And we haven't even begun to discuss who gets to define what services are worthy of qualifying.
Funny I just looked ast the website when you posted that to be sure I didn't miss anything. I see nothing WROMG with having kids do community service. As I said, look at any college app... they are looking for those who do community service.
I guess my stand is different that yours. Raise taxes on what? looked at the latest unemployment numbers? Maybe the rich? Not again.... no value? Being exposed to different people has no value? Gettng a sense of purpose has no value? Expose kids to people of different socio-economic levels.. .no value?
My son voluteers at the local homeless shelter one day a month and NOT because it is required.
BTW I prefer donkey to jackass and it is NOT stated on the site that it is arequorement of graduating from high school. What the actualy plan says is in order to qualify for college tuition help.
OK fed up.. .this is what I believe. America is one of the only countries were education is free to all. That education is funded in large part by our federal tax dollars. That being said, if community service is a requirement and you disagree, you can always put your kids in private school. Matter of fact, one of the private schools I was looking at for my son ALSO required community service though they received no federal funding. The point is to produce well rounded people who know compassion.
My property tax dollars pay (in part) for the public schools in my district, and we pay federal taxes as well, therefore my son has the right to attend them.
If I CHOOSE to put my son in a private school that has mandatory community service, then I CHOOSE to agree to those terms (we can't afford it, so it's not an option anyway). However, making it mandatory in a public school gives me no options whatsoever. As long as the community service we already choose to participate in is acceptable, he'd be able to meet the requirements, but what if, like some of the posters suggest, church (or any other faith-based) sponsored activities don't count?
However, it still goes back to the thought that I have the right to raise my child however I see fit. If that means that I raise him to be the most ungrateful, selfish child in the room, that is my right as a parent. However, because I love my son, I will teach him to be a loving, compassionate, caring, giving person. It's my job to produce a well rounded individual, not the school's or the government's.
Fedup: What about mandatory for college prep students. Not all students go to college.
I personally think that if you don't have something specific in mind, take a year or two before you go to college.
However, it still goes back to the thought that I have the right to raise my child however I see fit. If that means that I raise him to be the most ungrateful, selfish child in the room, that is my right as a parent. However, because I love my son, I will teach him to be a loving, compassionate, caring, giving person. It's my job to produce a well rounded individual, not the school's or the government's.
Multiply your theory of "your right" to raise a lazy child. Now multiply that by 100,000.
When does sociey take responsibilty for the inability of parents to raise children???
That child becomes a burdensome adult on society, who takes responsibility???
What is the future of a country where 70% is too stupid or lazy to care for themselves and 20% has special needs and only 10% takes care of everyone???
The last time I checked, this was still one of the most caring, compassionate countries on the face of the earth. Hmmm...must be all those lazy children we raised, out building houses, going on medical missions, running soup kitchens, cleaning up after hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, fires, etc., volunteering in schools, handing out clothing in shantytowns in Mexico, making bag lunches for the homeless...
I grant you that not everyone raises their children to be loving and compassionate. It's still not the job of the government to force people to raise their children according to a governmental program of "social responsibility". There will always be lazy parents; there will always be kids who dislike the idea of service; there will always be people who choose not to take responsibility for their lives. Is it really the role of the government to take over ALL parents' rights, for the sake of a few bad apples?
Again I agree. Maybe the time and effort would be better spent on making gang association illegal, and then building rehabilitation programs for all the gang members as we get them off the streets. My children are doing just fine. A mandatory program like this just puts an extra burden on those of us that are already trying to do it right. The ones that need it won't involve themselves to begin with. No change.
I am obviously not talking about those who already volunteer. They were obviously encouraged through good parenting, after school activities, and yes church to give back to the world.
But there are those who do not get the opportunity to serve. There are those who become part of societies waste.
And again we are not talking about a lot of time.
As far as High School, it becomes part of the learning curriculum
And College it is only mandatory as long as you want $4,000.
The resources represented by these state sponsered "volunteer" programs will be taken out of the private economy, thus weakening it more, causing more companies to fail, thereby taking more jobs out of the economy, thereby causing the need for more government programs, probably "volunteer" oportunities supported by the government, until yes, we are enslaved, because all our needs a are met by the government and there will be no room for individual initiative. We will all just be cogs in the wheel.
Remember, a large part of Ayn Rand's morality comes from the practice of free market capitalism.
"America is one of the only countries were education is free to all. "
Really? So where are my property taxes going? Funny, they told me they were going to fund my schools. So now I have to pay high property taxes AND my kid has to work to pay it off? Interesting.
either way, I would rather teach my child about community service myself. I'm getting a little tired of schools poking their noses into everything. The latest atrocity from schools is looking at what kids are bringing for lunch and admonishing parents. Soon they'll be tucking our kids into bed at night for us.
Its volutary just like it has always been... Some people need to read the actual article not what is posted as I show above. No one wants it mandantory even though the benefits from such service could go a long way to betterment in this country.
a similar article seeded already discusses that the site is still in the beginning stages, but honestly, i don't think that community service is such a bad idea.....
We have become a nation that thinks things should be given to us. We take our freedoms for granted. I am willing to do my part! I work in a public school! But I spend a lot of time, as does my husband, with other peoples kids. Some of these kids' parents don't even come to watch them play in a game. Some of these kids don't even know whether they are going to have a hot meal when they go home at night.
To show a child some support, no matter how small, is something that they will appreciate down the line.
To one and all - teaching work ethics is a fine thing! We all need to do something to make our time on earth worthwhile. When you get old and look back on your life, what will you see that YOU have done to benefit someone else besides yourself? It doesn't even have to be a big deal. Small things count too. We are all human beings, young and old, and alive. Just start with looking around and find anything at all that will help someone else and you are beginning to help yourself. GG
Plant a community garden. Teach children (and anyone else who wants to learn) the valuable experience of growing their own food. It makes you appreciate farmers and agricultural workers. A lot. And fresh tomatoes......mmmmmmm!
"In this country we take everything for granted is about time we get our butts out there and do something for this country. Yes we Can!"
So true! I watch the next generation (my daughter included) seemingly take the amazing privilege of living in this nation for granted. The benefits that we all receive by virtue of our luck of the draw in simply having been born here are too numerous to count.
At this point in time, Obama has activated a long dormant enthusiasm that I have not seen since the Sixties. I only hope that he can channel it into constructive paths, maintain it, and inspire the new generations fo Americans to work to improve this great nation.
All I know is I am sick to death of seeing privileged and the kids from my neighborhood talk about how bored they are and there is nothing to do and no one will give them a job and me me me me me me me me.
This is an idea that gets them out of that habit. It can give them direction.
Hell, I volunteered at the Girls Club one year and got the Margaret Nobel Award. I still remember that with pride.
We are talking about an hour a day, a few weekends, or a couple weeks out of your summer.
I find all these comments commendable. I have problems with the mandatory part. Its a very slippery slope. Is my child going to be loaded on a bus at school and supervised by an unscreened volunteer while she volunteers at an abortion clinic. Yes this may be an extreme example. I just look at the times we live in and read everyday about government programs like DHS where children are being mentally, sexually and physically abused by adult "volunteers" while the government which instituted these programs can't or won't pay for decent screening or salaries for the overseers to do their jobs. My children are well guided by me. Go out and try to mandate the children in gangs and their parents. Leave my well raised children alone. I'm just sayin...slippery slope.
While it no longer says "required", I still don't think I would have a problem with it. I see it as another credit requirement for promotion to the next grade. Call it a required citizenship class..right along with english and math.
But I do see the need to make sure there is a way to excuse the requirement if it is discovered that nothing can truly be found or due to students other obligations.
My children attended a catholic high school they were required to have 24-30 hrs of volunter work for every year og high school to graduate. In public school when I suggested it instead of saturday detention, I was told they could not "require it". Obviously the mandatory part is a problem and children and young adults should not be asked to participate in areas that conflict with their moral ethics.(ie Planned parenthood) neither should participation in political activities be considered service (specially ACORN).
"I know of no better definition for the corporations raping the economy while rewarding of workers was virtually non-existent. If stagnant wages don't convince you, just ask migrant workers."
The corportations are being raped by America. Also, migrant workers risk their lives coming to America, and are at risk of being deported while working here, but they still come. The opposite is true.
Solution: get rid of the minimum wage, open the borders, and free up the businesses so the competant can be rewarded.
LOL ok now I see your mindset. Immigrant workers risk their lives to get here and work for less than any American can exist on.
Solution: get rid of the minimum wage, open the borders, and free up the businesses so the competant can be rewarded
In addition remove the minimum age work requirement so we can get those 7 year olds into the sweat shops. The competent? I don't know any American who does not WANT to work! The problem is NO person is going to PAY to work and without a minimum wage that is what you are proposing. Heck half the time the minimum wage results in paying to work when you take into consideration the expense of childcare for families.
Give it a break... You ARE espousing a new type of slavery! Your proposals would set this country back 200 years.
when will people learn that the solution to one problem is just the beginning of another problem.
dropping the minimum wage will only cause a shift in value, which will then result in hoarding of money, a drop in income for many, and bring about a even bigger shift in class divisions, which in time will turn cause capitalistic motives into a economic feudalism. "freeing" up businesses will only lead to problems of generally lower economic productivity as the workforce is becomes burdened with problems of sustainability, health, and security. the borders, well... i'll leave that for someone else to argue.
the biggest problem is not that corporations are getting "raped", or that individuals are getting "raped". the biggest problem is that capitalism, like every other -ism, is easily exploited by those seeking power, and its necessary to protect everyone equally through checks & balances. until that sweet spot of capital growth is found, individuals and businesses are going to reap rewards and feel big pains.
The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
Umm.....
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
This greedy Reagonic Me society has done nothing to make this country greater. 75% graduation rate, declining mortality rates, rising infant deaths rates, suicide rates increasing, the list goes on and on.
yeah hows that lack of minimum wage doing in mexico?
you do know walmart doesnt pay it's badg boys a dime in mexico..they survive liek street people.. by begging.. walmarts excuse they are following the law and no company pays the bag boys"
this is what we will have without min wage
see a company will cut your wages to compete with the competition and if you dont liek it you can quit..and eventually the excuse can be here "well no one else pays them either)
all markets started without regualtion the new deal is one of the regulations that saved this country from the great depression and why we have done so well until now.
but lets visit walmart and free amrkets again.. you know wlamart was just busted by the mexican supreme court for paying it's store workers with "walmart bucks". This "money" could only be used in store and for products at "pre discount" prices.. this is what peopel like AynRand want to return to.. the good old days of hte robber barons, where you were basically in indentured servant to your corporation.
the rest of us have moved past the robber barons and no we dont want a bunch of mini nation states controled by the walmarts of the country.
On behalf of all people who support free markets: please, don't be on our side.
Seriously, in light of the bailout how can anyone possibly maintain that big business and big government are at odds with each other? While there are occasional polite disagreements between the plutocratic and bureaucratic wings of the ruling class, there is no fundamental conflict.
Unfortunately, for every liberal drone that thinks it will be awesome when Obama makes the trains run on time, there is some dip@!$%# Randroid who is there to shed a tear for the poor oppressed corporations. *sigh*
....Since my daughter has attended Catholic schools all her life and is a junior now at a Catholic H.S. in Florida...................Service Hours are nothing new. In elementary school she had to complete 20 per year........and now in high school 40 if she completes it during the summer or 30 during the school year.
Parents also are required to earn service hours.
If you make it part of the package from day 1......it becomes normal.
This instills work ethic, pride in accomplishment, pride in fulfilling something for someone else as well as yourself, community outreach.
Every year my daughter's high school brings in over 100,000 can goods for a food bank here in town. It becomes a community wide effort. It has instilled a competition between our school and our sister school in another town as well as another state........between 3 schools 500,000 items for the needy
If 3 groups can do this in a 2 week period. IMAGINE.....just imagine........what an entire global effort can accomplish.
It's not totalitarian it's HUMAN...it's COMMUNITY.
Get over yourselves.....if you're too damn lazy and selfish to help then fine.....at least be real about it and admit you're just lazy...but don't go around calling giving back to your community somthing evil and wrong.
I agree whole heartily. I do not get this. I would expect out of Republicans a desire to get people busy helping themselves. Instead I see a need to call this Totalitarian or Communistic.
We finally have a leader who is going to light a fire under our a$$es.
This last one took our country to war and then told everyone to lay back and shop (on the credit card system).
For the life of me I just don't understand what it is these people want.
JCAtom - I hope Barak Obama stirs in us the notion of what Kennedy said during his innauguaral - Ask not what your country can do for you....ask what you can do for your country.
DragonWoman good to see you too :) I do not understand either considering one of their tenets is for self-reliance.
So what do they do? They begin picking apart Barak Obama not 48 hours into his transition. They meet 'secretely' in the Shennendoah Valley in Virginia to start their plan of attack on regaining power.
It's all about power.
They are not going to be happy until we are nothing but some theocracy.
And people worry that Obama is this secret Muslim and we're going to end up worshiping at Mosques instead of churches and temples.
Already complaining?? Holy cow, this is just a possibility, nothing set in stone, just some pro active president elect ideas being thrown at us, the slavery comments along with the preemptive @!$%#ing about how hard our kids already work, its not fair, all of you listen here "It is past your bedtimes, get your bottles and get into bed" I expect my children to have an active interest in their community, in a society were we have slowly retreated into our small comfort zone for fear that some one may find out what they have and try to take it away or worse yet they may expect me to....gulp..share.
All the whining about the government doing this, taking that or giving that (to the wrong people, of course) blame the Republicans, blame the Dems, the gays, the minority the majority, WHATEVER, blame, blame accuse, all the while doing absolutely zip to do something other then complain about it. How dare anyone ask someone to work for what they want?? The audacity!
Put down the game-boys, cut back on one of 3 sports and 7 extracurricular activities and help your fellow man, be a human being offering assistance to another human being and for that you will get money for higher education. In addition to some strenght of character.
Those families whose children's college education is secured, be it loans or liquid wealth then this will reduce those loans or allow a small amount to remain in your accounts.
For those who have no desire to continue this will be an incentive, you worked for it, might as well give it a shot. Involvement in the community for the time span required will work wonders, ambition, final pay off or payback, if you will. How about good -ole "I earned it, I am sure as hell not going to throw it away."
Those whose families cannot even consider the option will have children involved in a positive environment, helping others while working toward the freedom, the possibilities higher education offers. To all of you extremists who enjoy living in fear almost as much as planting it in others...ugh, it is JUST A POSSIBILITY REMEMBER!!
As #4.7 so hysterically comments "adult volunteers molesting our children...."well raised children" Really??? So not only is the OPTION(went as far as detailing income, after volunteer? among others) going to expose our children to the overwhelming number of adults who as you state are "volunteers" whose sole purpose is to disguise themselves as a volunteer just to have unlimited access to as many children as desired. WOW! Paranoid much...who would have imagined....all along it has been the volunteers(insert sarcasm if you havent already) such genius?. I am sure keeping your children away from those community volunteers and their baby loving ways, is part of why YOU believe your children are well guided?
Moving on. The (sane and realistic) truth of the matter is latter occurs in our country under the most well though out, parent supplied circumstances to suggest that our children because they are forced to get off their lazy behinds (read the article about childhood obesity, a problem of epidemic proportions if you thought otherwise) and be a positive contributor toward their own future success, stop making excuses and get involved with your fellow human, helping others and compassion is the key to change in every community, invest in your fellow man.....REALLY I SWEAR IT DOESN'T HURT ONE BIT!!!
BTW, I am the mother of 3 who will go to collage with help from this program or not, if not they are still expected to get involved, does wonders in the appreciation dept. Since my oldest voluntered at a soup kitchen, I have not heard one whine..."Mom, don't we have anything GOOD to eat."
A suggestion, a maybe, a possible option...HELLO people it is something, Obama's seat in the White house isnt even warm yet and he is already thinking up ways to make the change we all want. United communities, children with a sense of hope and compasion, all tied up neatly with money you dont have to pay back with interest over 30 years. What the hell is the problem??
This slogan "Yes We Can" or as it was originally stated by Cesar Chavez "Si Si Puede" isn't new........but it now has a new vision based on Kennedy's "New Frontier"
No one can dig us out of the trench we're in but us. Ever task needs a project manager and that is Barak Obama.......we are the ones who have to do the work from the inside out so that his ideas and his plans can start working from the bottom up.
United we stand....divided we fall.
If we aren't careful the long slippery fall we've already begun wont stop until we hit bottom and that frankly should scare the hell out of us than a little hard work and sacrifice.
I read this article and thought to myself it seemed like not a big deal, but then I read the comments, and was floored.
We have children, 4 to be exact, they now range in age from 13-23. They all have had community service hours on their high school diploma. Second son had nearly 300, current senior daughter has close to 200. (and it only counts from 10th grade-12th) current 8th grade daughter has done many, many hours.
This weekend, her girl scout troop is going up to work all weekend, fixing up the girl scout camp before the younger girls use it in the spring. They will redo the hiking trails etc. She has also worked with younger kids in a performing arts school, helping them with stage work during a play, costuming, etc, just because she likes that sort of thing (on her own, not with any group or scout troop).
Oldest son was in culinary group in high school that volunteered at the local "soup kitchen". Other son volunteered with a group that did a "Breakfast with Santa" for families that had small children and needed help for the holidays, the teens did everything from play games with the kids, to deliever the food, presents and trees to the houses.
These are just things they did, they got no "reward" etc.. they just learned it as a natural part of life. All of them, in Kindergarden, helped maintain a "neighborhood" garden, where once a week, they walked to the garden, a block from school, and did some sort of work, from planting to weeding, their reward was a "feast" from the things they grew. Just to learn how food grows etc.
Maybe some of it was me, as I have volunteered many places, ever since they can remember. I do not see it as a bad thing.
Last evening, my senior daughter was talking about Americorps, she wants to find out more about it. I just don't see it as a bad thing. I really didn't expect people to see it as a bad in any way.
I really didn't expect people to see it as a bad in any way.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Some people get offended when they hear that. I know it offends me! How DARE someone tell me to donate some of my precious valuable time for others! ME ME ME!
Unfortunately Arizonan I have not seen much of that where I live, I commend you for your good parenting.
Where I live, I see kid all over the street sometimes until after 10 at night (little ones), they are in young gangs. Breaking windows and destroying property.
Some of the ones against this idea would say just put their butts in jail or Juvenal Hall.
What a waste.
What a waste of human life. Just to be tossed away without a chance for change. This could be it.
Before Obama was elected the big fear was that he was going to hand out reparations. Just money for nothing. Now I hear (see) folks against community service.
Your the parent, and if you happy with your children doing community work for the school that's fine.
But to make it mandatory or Demanded is going to far. We give enough to our country paying taxes, military, etc.. So it should be up to the parent and it should be on a volunteer basis
But to make it mandatory or Demanded is going to far. We give enough to our country paying taxes, military, etc.. So it should be up to the parent and it should be on a volunteer basis
What makes you think that this is MANDATORY. If you can afford to send your kids to school without intervention there is not requirement. However, if you are asking for government help to provide more opportunity for your children, what is your issue.
I told my son from day ONE that mom will NOT be paying for college. He has always understood that he would need to work in order to get there. It is what made me the person that I am. I am actually grateful that this proposal guarantees him a WAY to work and EARN his way through college. It is not a right, it is a privilege.
As far as being a REQUIREMENT when is the last time you looked at a college app? One field you cannot miss is where they ask about your community service. Colleges are looking for people who look beyond themselves. As a matter of fact. my son brught it up before he even entered high school asking me what type of community service he should do for his college app.
The question is, even WITHOUT, Obama would your kid be denied acceptance without community service on their colleg resume? Very possibly depending on the pool.
I really didn't expect people to see it as a bad in any way.
Republicans are very very good at one thing: hate.
They hate Barack Obama and will do everything they can to impede him, hurt him, stop him. By any means necessary. And I do mean that exactly the ominous way it sounds.
Kim, the more I thought about your post, the more frustrated I became.
To lump almost half the population into a group, say they're a bunch of haters, and that we are plotting to assassinate PE Obama is probably the most hateful thing I've heard out of anyone's mouth in a very long time.
People have criticized my screen name in the last week, saying it's divisive. However, posts like yours are exactly why I chose it.
To assume that anyone who doesn't belong to your political party is of a certain mindset is bigoted, divisive, hateful, racist and just downright mean. Why do you think that YOU have the right to point the finger at half the population and hurl hateful, insulting accusations? Why is it okay for YOU to be judgemental and hateful, while accusing us of being the same?
I didn't see the rest of Kim's post so I am not sure what she said, but as to your screen name, I think she might have a point. I think your screen name does lend itself to "the other side" being predisposed to being antagonistic before anyone hears what you are actually trying to say.
For the rest of your post, I agree, but it is not confined to liberals. You are also completely right that it is inappropriate to take the extremist views of some and assume it applies to all. There is far too much hateful nonsense going both ways. It IS NOT O.K. for one side to be judgemental and hateful while accusing the other of beign the same.
I like to move around to a lot of different Blog sites, including some very conservative ones, to get a feel for the orientation/topics of choice from other viewpoints. I haven't heard a lot of assassination talk(that would probably generate some visits from the Secret Service at this point), but I HAVE personally seen a lot of activity on how to get Obama impeached even before he gets into office, along with a lot of perpetuation of very sick character assassination on things that have already been proven to be fallacies or for which there are zero grounds for making the accusations.
We ALL must be very careful about what we say in order to respect the right for others to have valid viewpoints. We need to start policing ourselves, our entire blogs, and the extremists on our side of the house. We must not get so wrapped up in it that we demonize the entirety of the other side or assume that a few speak for all. We can't shut down all the nonsense in that way, but if we set a high standard, the B.S. will stand out and we can either ignore it or delete it and eventually all will get the hint. If we do that, I think we all can learn a lot from each other.
If I read one more derange moron ragging on the republicans because of this or that i will scream. First Republicans are not evil, they are not the devil they are your neighbors, your baker, your cashier at the supermarket. They are people like everybody else. Trust me I have met plenty of miserable liberals in my lifetime. Intolerant bigots of the left that believe only they have a right to br righteus. They are better that others and in their hubris become a parody of that which they hate. Good and bad people exist in both sides and as long as you spout the "those republicans" line nothing will get better, nothing will get done.
in your comment 10.8, it's insane to make it mandatory to do community service. There are enough free loaders receiving government assistance sitting on there butts and also prisoners. Let them do the service. This will make the students understand that if they don't succeed they could be out there.
By the way I put my daughter through college, and she is very successful. By bringing kids into this world, I feel it's a parents duty to help get them started. There are no excuses..
I would just like to interject in this discussion with an important reminder.
To everyone who avows, like AynRand, that government is supposed to "leave us alone" or "get out of our way", could you please take a hard, honest look at how much you really depend on government in your daily life? I mean it. You can still come on the board and puff up your chest while pretending to be a Hemingway conservative, but secretly make a list of all the necessities government provides for you on a day-to-day basis.
could you please take a hard, honest look at how much you really depend on government in your daily life?
-While I agree with Rugged individualism in principal, it really has become an anachronism. We aren't a society of squatters out on the frontier anymore. Our lives are too interconnected and interdependent for real, honest individualism to be a necessity, but they are just disparate enough to use it as a rallying cry people who want to dupe others into thinking any and all government regulation is an inherently bad thing. Its interesting how neo-cons who profess to want small government squeal when issues like government service come up, but are strangely silent when issues surrounding government impingement on privacy rights come up.
People who think like AynRand have no problem feeding off the public school system, will cash that pretty little social security check when they're eligible and will wholeheartedly take the medicare when they're old and decrepit. Lets not mention how angry they get if our government forgets to pick up their trash and doesn't fix our roads and bridges...How dare our government provide these necessities to its citizens. Such socialists...
Government is good when you need something, but God forbid we are asked to give something back...
could you please take a hard, honest look at how much you really depend on government in your daily life?
this is as basic as where you get your water, your electric, who picks up your trash, who answers your emergency calls, who protects your neighborhood from crime, who puts out your burning house. We ALL rely on the government to an extent. Giving back is morally right, it teaches children to do the right thing; and what is it going to hurt... whose time is that precious that they can not give a little bit to someone else.
Well I guess wwe could always set him/her up with an armory and the next time this country is attacked out em on the next plane over. However, I fear his solution would require the new 'slaves' to have that honor.
Juno, just curious - but what does coming together as a nation mean to you?
I get the sense from a lot of conservative voices on here that we should be a nation of individuals striving to achieve our own definition of happiness. Now that doesn't sound all that bad - especially to those who already have a leg up, but I am wondering when do we unite? When are we one nation?
For instance, complete the sentence - "I am only looking out for numero uno except in the case of ________________________________.
12.2 You addressed Juno, but if I may, I think we should all contribute to society on a volunteer basis. Make the opportunities available, but don't force the service. Now, there are exceptions to this rule. I do believe in the draft in the time of national emergency in order to form an army. There are things the government must require for the sake of the nation. Public service is not one of them. It becomes dangerously akin to trying to make us all look the same, act the same and think the same. I'm sure that is not your intention. Individual rights is a good thing for the country. In our freedom we are inspired to serve our country in ways a government wonk making up a list of required tasks could never imagine. So, get off the high horse and stop the labeling and chiding. We all want a better country.
The confusion is that there seem to be two different plans involving community service (if they overlap, please correct me.) The article points to a plan requiring community service from students, much like many private schools currently enforce. Obama outlined a separate (I think) plan during the race in which college students would get $4000 a year toward college in exchange for some kind of (unspecified at the time) community service.
We are one nation, not a herd of cattle, I have to agree 100% with savannah 12.3.. We all or lets say the majority of us pay taxes to keep our country running and that is supposedly the job of the politicians, and while they do there job, we as citizens do what ever we feel like doing and not being obligated criminals to do community service or any other service some politicians wants to take credit for.
Savannah: There isn't one. I guess this is one of those "read between the lines" deals. I believe it is being pitched by posters as such simply because of the Obama college tax credit tied to community service, and the fact that AmeriCorps does offer tuition assistance to those who complete service thru them. So basically, assumption. You know what the saying is about assume don't you? So I will assume nothing, and take it as presented.
Agreed. I am responding specifically to the ultra-individualism being promoted by a lot of conservative posters.
As much as you fear a collective national mind, I fear a fragmented individualistic society. I would list the climate crisis, financial crisis, and global poverty as results of a mind set that believes cause and effect are only relevant to a certain individuals concerns or the concerns of an individual corporation - ignoring it's larger implications or dismissing them as not relevant.
I don't consider helping the impoverished or bettering education opportunities in low-income nieghborhoods through community service to be Orwellian.
I also understand the difference between encouraging and mandating. It is very significant.
Ahhh, so at the root of things, we agree. I think the Peace Corps is great. Volunteerism is powerful and effective. Once again it comes down to "encouraging" or "mandating". EncourageYES - Mandate NO
We mandate kids to go to school in the first place. Do you feel parents should have the right not to send their kids to school at all.
We mandate sending kids to school because we no the importance of having an educated society. We should also want them to learn the importance of serving and hard work. I see nothing wrong with this as a mandate.
4real: I believe in the right to home school in a responsible way. I can teach my children the importance of service and hardwork without the government telling me to.
Are you really willing to just hand over your children with no questions asked? If the children do not fulfill the requirement then what? You pay a fine? Take your kids away? Kick the kid out of school? Ask some questions without jumping on board for anything that requires something without you knowing exactly what!
Last I checked, education and community service were hardly what Orwell was warning against.
Are you really willing to just hand over your children with no questions asked? If the children do not fulfill the requirement then what? You pay a fine? Take your kids away? Kick the kid out of school? Ask some questions without jumping on board for anything that requires something without you knowing exactly what!
I could also say wait to see what the program looks like fleshed out before assuming the worst based on the basic idea.
The PATRIOT act is Orwellian. Circumventing FISA is Orwellian. A President that alters democratically passed law through signing statements is Orwellian. Increasing conglomeration of media is Orwellian.
Okay, I've been observing for awhile here and enjoying reading your great posts. I'm going out of a limb here, friends. I agree with Obama on this one -- IF I understand it correctly. Consider:
Most public and private high schools in our area (NC) already require 30 hours of public service for graduation. All colleges look for it and have for years now. This would be an increased requirement -- big deal. As long as it's overseen as a part of curriculum, as it is now, I think it's a good thing for our young people to have to contribute to their country instead of just taking. And, there's a bit of a payoff in it for them now.
Other countries, such as democratic Israel require military service of their citizenry.
I was one who agreed with Phil Gramm when he said we had become a nation of whiners. Too many just ask what their country can do for them. This idea will assure children that they are able to and have a responsibility to contribute to their country.
I do not support child labor, and I don't believe Obama does either. But, everyone has something to offer!
Appropriate safeguards must be put in place including allowing for credit for those who volunteer under the auspices of their place of worship, etc. But, on the surface, I think this is a good idea.
The PATRIOT act is Orwellian. Circumventing FISA is Orwellian. A President that alters democratically passed law through signing statements is Orwellian. Increasing conglomeration of media is Orwellian.
I agree.. I would add compulsary service. Can we agree to disagree on that?
Yes Ellie, I see your point. I guess I distrust government a wee much. Safeguards would be a good thing. I'm really not trying to be difficult, maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't like stuff like this cause it's many times a good idea and good intentions that get twisted and misused. People resent the "Christian Right" for moralizing and potificating and then they turn around and do the same thing.
Oh, I would add a home school provision, too. Most home schoolers are community service "machines". The object would not be to punish those who are already participating in their communities in this way.
Savannah, good point. I see this as perhaps a victory for our conservative principles, though. That said, vigilance, vigilance....
Obama outlined a separate (I think) plan during the race in which college students would get $4000 a year toward college in exchange for some kind of (unspecified at the time) community service.
This...I could definately do. I mean, the idea of community service isn't bad--but from the sounds of this website, it appears to be mandatory with no benefit whatsoever, which makes me think, "We've had at least a decade of an administration that did nothing for the people, can't you at least give us something in return before you require us to do work?"
There are things the government must require for the sake of the nation. Public service is not one of them. It becomes dangerously akin to trying to make us all look the same, act the same and think the same.
How exactly does community service make us look, act, and think the same?
are yall against the isreali requirement, that all of it's citizens serve in the military, with a threat of jail if you refuse? /www.goerie.com/graduates/2002/community_service_hours_can_tr.html"where yall ouraged at bush's plan that sounded exactly like this one? scholaship money for community serivce?
where yall upset at reagans points of light foundation that gives out scholarships for community service?
and you do know that creating an attitude that community service is good is a great way to reduce the cost of government?
you also know that Buhs's dad the other former president bush created a scholaship specifically for peopel who do community service?
I didnt say that we mandate going to public school. They mandate a child has to be educated. I agree we are having a lot of discussions about his ideal without knowing details. I think this will only apply to kids in public school, it would be harder to enforce otherwise.
For those who post this is the start of some Orwellian 1984, I agree with 12.18 we have had more trangression to our individual rights in the last 8 years that scare me far worse then kids doing some community service
Personally i think of it as adding one more "R" to the cirriculum: Reading Writing Arethmatic, and coming soon Responsibility.
OK, people, "1984," a work by George Orwell, was FICTION. It was a made-up story. You guys need to get a grip and stop acting like he wrote a textbook or something.
As for made up stories being accepted as fact ... Do you have the same problem with the Bible or any other religious text?
What about Obama's Blueprint for Change, or any campaign literature?
Then there's most of the "news" content of the mainstream media...
We all behave according to popular myth and accepted cultural narratives -- the Neocons have a single skill, and that is manipulating these popular myths, and look at the damage that has done to us all. (This is Neocon PNAC developer Philip Zelikow's speciality.)
It is a mistake to underestimate the value and impact of "fictional" works on a population's actual conduct.
What is the issue requiring time for value.. Its the way you make your paycheck. Anything else and the system would not survive. You would have those that decided they only wanted to do one hour and those that would work tirelessly because they found some niche that would feel comfortable but receive the same benefit?
Basically it is not an hourly requirement. If you want the 4 Grand you work the required hours, if not find another way to pay for your education.
REMEMBER this program is designed to help the US infrastructure. Kinda like the 'Give Something Back' program that has been initiated in some communities.
What is the issue requiring time for value.. Its the way you make your paycheck. Anything else and the system would not survive. You would have those that decided they only wanted to do one hour and those that would work tirelessly because they found some niche that would feel comfortable but receive the same benefit?
The problem is that this so-called plan calls for mandatory service requirements for Junior High students, not just $4K for college students. If I choose to work, I accept that I must be at work for so many hours to get so much pay. What in the world are we doing mandating community service for 12 year olds? It's not the same thing.
Sorry, Brammy, I don't see where you got the "total time requirement" thing from that website. It doesn't say it anywhere I looked.
And my 3 1/2 year old son has already had a taste of community service, and will continue to be involved, but not because of some government mandate. It's out of love for our fellow man. That's what's missing in forcing people into community service.
That was what I got from the actual plan during the campaign.
So lets say it IS a requirement. I posted above that America has the greatest free education system in the world. Investigating private schools for my son, I know some also require community service.
I really wish people would stop looking at this as a matter of control and possibly a system in order to expose kids to different aspects of life and produce well-rounded individuals
That being said everyone is entitled to their opinions. I see no problem with it personally mandated or not. However I am SURE that everything the candidate proposes will not come to fruition.
I do not support child labor, and I don't believe Obama does either. But, everyone has something to offer!
I have always gotten 10x more 'out' of a volunteer or community service opportunity than I 'gave'. I imagine the young people who participate in this program, whatever its final incarnation will be, will find that to be true, too.
I served 24 year in the United States Navy, 8 active and the rest in the Reserves, during which time I was employed as a Police Officer in the community I happened to be living in. Additional community service was completed as a police officer in between my enlistments. Let's see PE Obama's community service against mine or anyone elses that has a similar record of real Community service. And Im not talking about being a community organizer, that's a load. I used to travel to South Chicago from Great Lakes on the train and then by bus, not one person was out working in that part of town, all the while I was getting $69 per 2 weeks for Navy Pay! Big plans, little trun-out we who served should should be re-imbursed retro-actively from day one!
Could it be that there were no Jobs in that area. Could it be that at the same time you were stepping onto your bus in the morning, they were getting onto their to head to the OTHER side of town. With you time period that is more than likely true.
Unless you knocked on every door in that community everyday, how can you make that assumption. Ever heard of the night shift.
Of course just like the majority of those here you can only see things through your narrow window of experience and being a bitter beat cop is not community service.
BTW 24 (1984)years ago was at the height of the Reganomics meltdown. There were no jobs. As a recently seperated Vet at that time myself, I know. I was laid off from my company and job opps were few and far between. Look at what you are talking about and what timeframe.
BTW John, in times of economic turmoil, where jobs are concerned, those vwho have the least are usually the first to go. At least that was the case in 84. now companies have started cutting some of the fat at the top.
Let’s all forget for the moment that most, if not all of us, are basically a little bit fearful (read that paranoid) where the government is concerned. With all that has happened in this country over the years it’s more than to be expected. But let’s also not forget whose country this is. It’s not the government’s except for the individuals within it. It doesn’t belong to any particular administration or group. This is our country and just as with our own house, it is our responsibility to take care of it and those within.
Most of you feel that the homeless guy you saw on the street or the teenager in handcuffs are not your problem, not your responsibility. If your neighbor looses his or her job it’s not your concern. Many people in this country, unfortunately, have transcended the “me first” mentality to become the “me only” isolationists. Equally sad is the fact that many of these claim to be Christians following an ideology that teaches against just such attitudes.
We want this country to get better for ourselves and our children, but how many are willing to make it happen. It won’t happen by sitting at your computer or in your favorite bar complaining about how the government isn’t doing enough while at the same time calling it government interference if they attempt to act at all. Volunteerism is not a new concept by any means. It predates this county, it predates western civilization. In the Christian belief it’s being “my brother’s keeper”. Other belief systems have their own forms of the same. It’s the concept of each individual taking charge of not only their own place in this world but in making this world a little better than they found it.
Am I for a wider involvement in community service through various organizations, in a word, yes. In a more complete explanation, I have spent the last 25 years involved in the welfare of the community including founding and incorporating a non-profit organization helping at-risk youth and an organization called Advocacy Ink generating artwork and media for pro-active organizations that can’t afford the media houses. I have worked with the homeless and the needy. And I have been blessed by every moment of it. Not through payment – there hasn’t been any and I usually paid for it out of my pocket. Not through any ego boost. It was in the interaction and learning these other peoples stories, their experiences, being connected to something bigger than myself.
So, you’re right. It’s not your job or your responsibility. It’s an opportunity to connect with the bigger picture. It’s your opportunity to help make this world a better, safer place. The Obama Campaign used the slogan “yes we can”, let’s make ours “yes we will”.
Is it my responsibilty to keep my idiot neighbor off drugs, no! Is it for me to keep his five dogs from being run over, no! His 4 children, no! But I will report his actions to the authorities.
I am not my brother's keeper, personally, the theme of the proposal is absurd, the lawyers will grab onto the lawsuit train by declaring there are no labor laws to be followed. In the case of helping thy neighbor, to what degree!!
It is not a big deal. My daughter had to do it for school and 4H. She complained but then was happy she did it.
I think Obama is looking at the big picture. Everyone should start caring about other people instead of the current attitude every man for himself and to hell with any one else.
Hell how many lonely old people are thrown into nursing homes or otherwise ignored by their family because they are too busy to be bothered? If kids can benefit from someone spending time with someone like them ESPECIALLY if the kids can get college credit or tuition breaks GO FOR IT.
John how could you have a problem with some kid reading to one of your kids in the hospital or mowing your lawn if you were injured and have no family to help. Helping painting your elderly neighbors house so it doesn't affect YOUR property values. Cleaning up the litter from the park down the street so when you walk your dog or take the kids to play they don't step on litter or glass. Or someone being a Big Brother or Big sister to some kid who needs it.
A little bit of kindness goes a long way. it's all about not being so self centered anymore.
It saddens me to see all these people questioning, or doubting, or opposing helping out in their community. But here is the thing: when a disaster occurs, they will be the first people to holler for help. They will expect for someone to help them. And, speaking for myself, I would help them regardless. But shouldn't that kindness be returned?
I mean the money towards college is great! But isn't the shear desire to help someone, reward enough alone?
I think Obama is looking at the big picture. Everyone should start caring about other people instead of the current attitude every man for himself and to hell with any one else.
My biggest question is this: can we really legislate compassion? Granted, more people may get involved, partially because of what they will receive. I am not against community service; I have done a lot in my lifetime, from volunteering at homeless shelters to building homes and handing out clothing in Mexico, to working at a low-income elementary school, to serving my church in many capacities. My family serves out of a sense of compassion and caring, not financial motivation, but since we do serve, we would be more than willing to get a tax credit if it's offered.
The question is, who decides what is or isn't community service? If I work in my church's nursery once a week for an hour, does that count? If I help my elderly neighbor mow her lawn, does that count? Does it have to be an "organized" event? Who signs off on it? Is the college tax credit only for those right out of high school? What about working adults who can only attend part-time? There are many unanswered questions, so I'm reserving my judgement until I know more.
No Fed up we cannot legislate compassion but we can hope from exposure that some is learned. Moreover, even those from the ME generation have to admit that if you expose a child to the consequences of bad choices, homeless shelter, illiteracy and the like, they are less likely to make those choices themselves.
Yeah, would have been nice to know a few more details on this before the announcement... Esp when they've already had to correct themselves from "required hours" to "goal of hours"... I was a bit frustrated when I heard it was a 'required" amount of hours (I am trying to go back to college in January and being required to do 100 hours of community service a year may be near impossible to meet)... now they're even talking about deferment for military service... does that mean service already performed (and will that effectively kill off the GIBILL?) or service after college?
I think it's a great idea. I did a lot of community service in high school and college, I have no problem with it being some sort of requirement, especially if it leads to tuition credit. I'm feeling no buyer's remorse from voting yet.
its great that you did community service. the value of community service is usually more the promotion of the idea that we are all responsible for the world in which we live and that it is a good thing for those of us that have to give to those that don't or to help the community that has fostered our success. forced servitude does not promote that idea.
Keep in mind we are not talking about adults being required to do community service. We ALREADY mandate kids learn, Why not make service a lesson we teach. Then as adults if they deciede the never want to help anybody ever again. Fine. But it wont be due to lack of exposure
As part of the classroom education fine. But the actual act of service should be voluntary; otherwise, it ceases to be a service and becomes an obligation.
you can be inspired by peoples deeds by reading and hearing about them and seeing their results. people were/are inspired by ghandi and ml king by hearing of their deeds and seeing their results. the same holds true for community service. the end state achieved would be far more desirable by inspiring people to do community service than by obligating them to do some form of work they have no interest in doing.
you can force somebody to learn about chemistry but to get a good chemist you need a person that wants to learn about chemistry.
By that argument should we stop teaching chemistry?
Rhetorical. the answer is no. We dont teach children chemistry with the hopes the become chemist. We teach them chemistry so they gain analytical thinking skills and learn about some basic physical properties of the universe. I dont suggest teaching chemistry to make chemist just like I dont think the goal of having kids do service would be to make them servants.
Keep in mind you keep saying force, but we are talking about children who we are"forcing" to educate themselves for their betterment do you think they would study chemistry if you gave them a choice?
look it is simple you are attempting to force morals on people and have them accept them and live by them. it is not the same as forcing education, it is the same as forcing vegetarianism. if you believe that it is the government's responsibility and duty to force moral values upon its citizenery and ensure that they at least once in their life pay lip service to those morals, then i can understand why you are ok with forcing this upon people.
4real, it's not up to the government to teach compassion, any more than it's their responsibility to teach manners, morals, etc. That is the job of a parent. If I believe it's in my child's best interest to learn that helping others is important, I will (and I do). The government's role in educating my child should be in things like math, chemistry, English, etc.
We complain about our schools falling behind; perhaps if we re-focused on actually educating them in the things they need to succeed in a global market, that wouldn't be the case.
I don't see it as teaching compassion. I see it as earning their keep. If they learn compassion, and some social skills then great. But if they don't then fine, but they've got something to do other than WII and drugs.
That is the job of a parent. If I believe it's in my child's best interest to learn that helping others is important, I will (and I do).
Its not the kids who have great parents that end up robbing people later. I agree that it is a parental job, but the reality is some will never get that from their parents and for those that do, consider it renforcement.
Schools teach morality all the time, My wife teaches Kindergarten they teach kids to share, say excuse me etc. . She tells kid manners are part of being good. When you read a kid "The boy who cried wolf" the story has guess what a moral. She doesnt, however, teach beliefs. Because we tell kids to "be good" doesnt mean we teach this belief comes from God.
We get so caught up on somantics, but I think it is important to check the system so that we dont get caught up in teaching beliefs, but lets no be so dramatic
I'm not being dramatic, I'm being practical. As soon as I finish my teaching degree, I will be there in the trenches with your wife. I understand the importance of teaching children manners; I also understand the importance of teaching them how to read. As a future teacher, I believe my priority is teaching kids the educational basics they need to succeed when they reach the next level of education. Hopefully while I'm doing that, I can teach them manners and common courtesy. That's not the same as forcing them (outside of school, I'm assuming) to perform community service.
Maybe one problem is we are assuming it is going to be after school (may or may not). We dont know til we get more details, But if it is, whats wrong with having an afterschool requirement. When you are a teacher are you going to assign homework? Should parents have the right to tell their kids not to do it?
When you get into the classroom you will hopefully see the same thing my wife sees. It takes much more than what is in the books to get kids to succeed. And it is not enough to say they should be getting this from home.
homework is education. community service is morality.
would going into neighborhoods with high teen pregnancy rates or aids/std rates and distributing condoms qualify as community service? how about going into those neighborhoods and teaching abstinence? how about driving people to planned parenthood? how about standing outside of planned parenthood and trying to convince people not to have an abortion?
I give up. I will continue to stand by my thought that it's not the government's job to teach my child compassion, or to compel him to serve his community when he's 12 years old.
I will continue to teach my child that it's important to help others when and where we can. I will continue to believe that I am still the main authority figure in my child's life, and I am responsible for deciding how and where he spends his time outside of school.
When I am a teacher, I will do my job to the best of my ability, that job being to educate children in the academic areas they need to succeed in life. I will, to the best of my ability, try to be a good role model for those students. I have many friends who are teachers; having spent MANY hours talking with them before deciding to finish my degree, I understand the challenges they face with discipline and respect in the classroom.
None of that changes the fact that it's NOT the goverment's role to FORCE anyone to VOLUNTEER.
I don't see it as teaching compassion. I see it as earning their keep. If they learn compassion, and some social skills then great. But if they don't then fine, but they've got something to do other than WII and drugs
Agreed. It is not about teaching compassion (not that it would be so bad to do that anyway). Community service is about teaching kids about real life - whether you consider that earning their keep, giving back, or just learning about how other aspects of their community work. The schools have become far too concerned with book knowledge for the sake of passing exams and kids miss out on learning about a huge portion of the world around them.
that job being to educate children in the academic areas they need to succeed in life.
Success in life is not all about academics. Being a good role model is not enough, relying on parents is not enough. And if we are talking about a couple of hours a week - what is the harm? It seems that the argument against this is based on not wanting government interference in individual lives. The government already interferes, for once it could be in a positive way.
It seems that the argument against this is based on not wanting government interference in individual lives. The government already interferes, for once it could be in a positive way.
That's the problem in a nutshell. I don't WANT any more government interference in how I choose to raise my child. I teach my child compassion. I teach my child to give back. I expect the schools to be concerned about book knowledge. That's their job. I want my child to be able to read and write proper English, to be able to do basic math, to understand our history, to know how to find Russia on a world map. That's why I send him to school. That's the "what, who, where, when"
It is my responsibility as a parent to teach my child about the "why".
standing out side a Planned Parenthood clinic and handing out hate mail and verbally assaulting a human being is not community service nor is just handing out condoms. That is not really helping the community, but promoting one single "loaded" idea. Come on you can do better than that... can't you?.
DW, has anyone on this board actually suggested that protest is a valid form of community service? Or handing out condoms?
Who were you actually talking to??? If you were talking to me, please go back and read some of my posts on this thread describing the volunteering I've done. Then get back to me regarding the "Come on you can do better than that... can't you?" remark.
i never suggested a protest but how about passing them out literatrure on adoption?
how is distributing condoms in areas where there are high teen pregnacy rates and high rates of std's not community service. wouldn't the community be better served with a lower rate of std and teen pregnancy?
it is certainly more beneficial than a community garden or some of the ideas i have seen posted on here.
the point is who gets to decide and why is it government's job to decide?
it is possible for people to do community service right now without any encouragement from the government.
fedup: I was not talking about yours, but DC_123. And since DC now wants to clean it up a bit. here is the post
homework is education. community service is morality.
would going into neighborhoods with high teen pregnancy rates or aids/std rates and distributing condoms qualify as community service? how about going into those neighborhoods and teaching abstinence? how about driving people to planned parenthood? how about standing outside of planned parenthood and trying to convince people not to have an abortion?
how and who gets to decide these things.
Community service is not morality. There is education involved.
How about volunteering at your local animal shelter, especially if your child is interested in Veterinary medicine.
How about a soup kitchen if your child is interested in culinary arts, civil work, or sorry to say mental health. (This may bring up, safety concerns... quite understandably so)
Someone mentioned earlier about an organic garden.
These are not necessarily moral issues, but educational and networking foundations.
There is a problem (in my humble opinion) out there that no one takes the opportunity to address, because it seems to step on parental toes.
I should volenteer that I am not a parent and if you want to have at me for that...fine.
But I see children as only in your care for 18 years, They then are sprung on society.
Some parents through home school and very strict guide lines maintain overt controls that super-seed safety and move into mind control. God forbid another thought be introduced to their way of thinking. God forbid they be who they are. And I suppose that is also a loaded idea.
Most certainly parents should be made aware of the volunteer curriculum and encouraged to see where their child has chosen to volunteer.
As for college, I suppose that is where your "apron" strings are cut off. Unless of course you continue to control your "child" through a savings accounts or trust fund.
the morality is not involved in what you volunteer to do but in the message that you should volunteer. why would it not be better or as good for a child to work at mcdonalds and donate $100 to the salvation army? why is it not better for a child to take the attiude that god helps those that hepls themselves? why would it not be better for a child to work at mcdonalds so that they can save for their college education? why would it not be better for the child to devote their time to studying?
You are the one who brought up McDonald's and donating 100 dollars as an alternative.
Throwing 100 dollars at a problem does not solve it. And anyone who works at McDonald's would tell you that they work too hard and pay taxes and would not give 100 dollars away so easily. I work an easier job and have $2 dollars a week taken from my check for United Way.
If you are refering to how the fast food industry is affecting our waist line.... You are right it is another discussion.
But what is it you want for your child to learn in life????
A quick way to make a lousy dollar that feeds into multiple problems in this country including poor diet..... or
How to work as a team towards major issues in society.
DW, my first job was at a fast food restaurant. I learned the value of hard work, customer service, and that money doesn't just grow on trees. I would think those are good things for our children to learn before we send them out into the real world. I was also taught to give 10% of my income to charity. I guarantee the people receiving aid because of my meager giving appreciated it.
There are lessons to be learned from every life experience; we just need to be willing to learn them.
I've read the comments on down and you make good, rational points. Unfortunately the discussion is with a couple recordings from a fantasy version of the 1950's. Things were simpler then, in that never-was world. People, too.
from a practical standpoint it would be better just to give them a 4000 tuition credit. part of the plan also call for mandatory junior high and high school servitude? what is your answer to that?
Thanks for doing that! I support my local UW, too. Like other national orgs, its effectiveness varies by location, so always important to know who you're supporting...
Point is, we don't need to wait for a new mandate to get involved either through donations or volunteerism. Local soup kitchens and food pantries will also be increasingly in need this winter.
When did community service become a bad thing? If I would have been given the opportunity to do community service in exchange for a tuition break, I would have glady (even though I was doing community service anyway). Besides, I worked with the Americorp program; it's a great experience.
There's nothing wrong with trying to instill hard work and community service into the younger generation. Lord knows we need it!
I wish I were able to exchange my $30K in student loans for community service work. Heck, I'd promise my life to service if my kids could go to college for free.
In the Christian belief it’s being “my brother’s keeper”. Other belief systems have their own forms of the same. It’s the concept of each individual taking charge of not only their own place in this world but in making this world a little better than they found it.
Speaking for the right, without being a member of it and as a Christian, which I am a member of ;-) Full time Christians have no problem helping out their neighbor, the community, the homeless man on the street. They want to help in their own way and a Christ-like way, which isn't always simply throwing money at a problem. The only thing the government can help is thru money, programs, and laws. Which makes a bigger impact overall though Me paying an extra $200 in taxes to the government to do the work for me, or me taking that $200 and buying that homeless man a coat, blanket, a couple of meals and sharing a conversation with him? Then driving over to someone's house that was destroyed in a storm, helping clean up and getting a few necessities? Finally stopping by that elderly neighbor's house to see how she is doing and if their is anything I can help her with? Much more good comes from a more localized approach as well as an actual chance of an impact on someones life. Requiring participation takes some of the goodness out of it. It is no longer you duty as a Christian or fellow human being, but a requirement to fulfill the mandate the government put on it's citizens.
Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year
Without any mention of scholarship, tuition, or tax credit.
I still don't understand the problem, parents are not required to send their kids to tax payer funded schools. Our schools stink and parents non involvement is the biggest problem. Get the kids away from facebook and make them contribute to the society that is providing their education.
should a school require homework to pass?
is that not work?
now what about . home work on pollution and takign the kids down to the park to clean up trash.. is that wrong as well?
should schools ban homework cause it is forcing your kids to do somethign?
My daughter had to do community service for high school graduation. It is a great idea and it really was easy. She just spent some volunteer time doing things she was interested in.
Wow! I thought Obama would at least wait until he was offficially sworn in until he started down the road of Marxism. This is not North Korea, this is supposed to be the USA! You know, freedom!!! I wish I had children in the middle and high school age so that I could file a class-action lawsuit against this ridiculous idea! Anyone who thinks this is a good idea should leave this country now and go live where to obey "our dear leader" is the way of life. Of course you won't go though. As long as the ideas don't directly infringe on your rights you will go along with it. As soon as his "ideas" step on your freedom or money you will be singing a different song. If Obama said everyone has to serve in the military and that meant you had to go you'd be up in arms and you would be the first ones to call the ACLU!
Cindi.......you are Un-American. Plain and Simple. And you are not a member of the world at large.
Lazy, uppity, entitled PITA.
Blearc.................I am a product of private schools as is my daughter......she does her part......I do mine.......we pay tuition.....we use financial aide that's available.....I dont sit on my ass and @!$%# and complain while others work.
If you don't take part.......you have no room to complain.
I'm not saying that those who go to private schools don't contribute, actually most private schools contribute a ton to their communities. What I'm saying is tax dollars which is my money, your money, our money should be earned.
I am a product of both and I must say I did more community service work in private school than in public. It was a requirement and therefore, we had no choice in the matter--but it never bothered me.
The only reason I did community service in public school was because I wanted to get into a good college. Then as a college student, every club I joined required certain amount of service hours...It has always been a part of my life and I am thankful.
Life is a give and take......and more bountiful and fulfilling if you concentrate on the giving because you want to.
Even though it is required in private school to work hours in support of your school community it encourages the work ethic to take it beyond the school grounds. I pay, 8,500/year for my daughter's tuition. I am only required to provide 10 hours for the entire year....that's it.....that's a little bit longer than a traditional work day spread out over 10 months......or better yet........1 hour per month.
Seriously.....the school asks me for 1 meesley hour per month to do my part. Is that so bad?
You know what that hour brings me? It brings me connection to my daughter's teachers and the administration, it brings me connection to my daughter and her friends....it brings me connection to other parents. I also see instant results as to where my money goes to.
I did not have a child so that I could pawn off their education solely onto the shoulders of teachers and adminstrators.
Work ethic, community service, patriotism & nationalism ...these are our virtues that should be generational..........not
Joules-I know I'll be flamed for this but I really think the draft should be reinistated and ALL loopholes closed. Senator, President, Joe-the-plumber: your kid's serving.
I won't flame you...just reiterate that military leadership strongly disagrees with you. It turns a highly motivated, trained corps into a babysitting service.
I am only required to provide 10 hours for the entire year....that's it.....that's a little bit longer than a traditional work day spread out over 10 months......or better yet........1 hour per month.
Yes, but this idea is asking for 50 hours from Jr. High students. That's a lot more, especially with the amount of homework they already receive (as much as 4-5 hours a night). While I want my child to understand the importance of helping those around him and helping create a better world, I don't want it to come at the expense of his education or his ability to be a kid.
What, by the way, do Jr. High kids get in return for this volunteer work? Do they earn college tuition? Does it go into a college fund? Or do they just get brownie points and a pat on the back? I'm not sure I understand the plan here.
My point is that service to our country should not be limited or forced on a select few. Many kids (not all) join the military because they have no other options, like my my stepbrother. He had limited choices and now the Army is his home (lifer).
We all live here and benefit from those who do serve our country with dignity and respect. There is nothing wrong with community and military service and perhaps if it were mandated, people would have more appreciation for our country.
I think some type of required national service is a great idea. It's about time that we all learned that we have to give back. We have to stop taking America for granted, and be willing to help wherever we can.
lol many conservatives dont think we shoudl offer a free education at all.
many childless conservatives complain about the taxes required to teach other peoples kids
now the conservatives are upset we ask the people getting a free education to pay back the country a little.
you rememerb northern exposure?? yeah many corporations already do this..
Joules, who is it that's getting a free education? I paid for my college education out-of-pocket, and I pay property taxes that go toward maintaining the public school system that my son will be a part of soon.
Are Jr. High students just mooching off the system? Do they not deserve an education unless they spend 50 hours a year volunteering? Did you attend public school? How much time do you spend volunteering, to pay us all back?
I guess the problem I have with this ISN'T the idea of volunteerism, it's the mandating of volunteering, and the attitude that the government is responsible for making people care about their fellow citizens.
It seems only fitting that people should be required to perform some kind of service to their country. It will make us better Americans and more intelligent citizens.
There are more ways to serve than just joining the military and prosecuting an illegal war by killing our peaceful Islamic neighbors, all in the name of BIG OIL.
I'm not too keen on the international slant, though. I think we need to focus on our issues here at home before we try to solve the rest of the world's problems.
What happened to just letting kids, be kids? Now how do we punish minors in the court system when community service normally would have been sentenced?
You all get what you voted for hahaha--- gee how many more empty and masked "solutions" are on the way? Maybe you sheeple should have thought about how any of these "ideas" where going to be paid for next time WAKE UP. LOL LOL
by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.
No more, no less. Could you cite a source saying this is voluntary?
You're right, high school community service is not voluntary. My children graduated high school 2008 and had to complete 50 hours of community service each to graduate. I didn't find this a hardship because I got them service in homeless shelters and food banks. It was a great experience for them and they were able to see how people on the other side lived. Community service should not be voluntary--it should be mandatory.
Too many of today's children feel entitled because parents give them too much that they don't have to work for or earn. Their rooms look like Circuit City which is unfortunate for them because they play with electronic toys instead of reading. Also, with all the noise they can't hear themselves think. Parents use the excuse that they want their kids to have the things they weren't able to have but I suspect the true reason is by providing their children with all their wants, they don't have to spend time with them. I'd rather have my children performing community service then out on the streets getting into things they shouldn't be.
We all should put in 100 or more community service hours each year. Helping others relieves stress, helps improve our outlook on life, helps us loosen those iron clad mindsets, and can help some with weigh loss.
My mother flipped out because Arnold Schwarzenegger has his children doing laundry at 7 or 8 years old.
My thought was: Ok so you mean that awful man is making his 8 year old separate colors, put them into a machine, put a cap of soap in it, let the machine do it's job, then take it out and dry them.
You mean he does not just give them $85 a week for breathing.
Hang the bastard!!! LOL =}
A few hours a week or a couple weeks in the summer is not a lot to ask. I wish I had the same option. I did have work study, nearly the same thing accept it could be localized to my point of study.
DW, it's not about asking kids to take personal responsibility for chores at home; many parents do that, and the ones that don't are foolish, in my opinion.
It's about the government stepping in, trying to parent my child for me, as if they know what's better for my child than I do. In your post, you said, "I wish I had the same option". The problem is, this wouldn't be an "option".
I'm all for community service, if it's done on a voluntary basis.
I've got my 2 year old excited to help with the dishes, she gets mad if i don't let her help, gonna keep the vid to prove it to her when she's in her teens "See you love to do chores."
But we aren't talking about my kid or your kid, this is about american societal problems and how to fix them. It's not feasible for the average family to let one parent stay home with the kids. It's not reality that parent keep their kids engaged in social and positive activities to make sure they don't pull off a columbine. It's not reality that the normal kid grows up with a work ethic.
Our current educational and youth socioligical (that a word?) sucks big dusty donkey balls. Now the idea isn't perfect and feasiblility and legal issue need to be worked out. But keeping the kids off my lawn to pick up the park or read to some kids for the amount of time spent in front of "American Idol" in a year. How is that bad?
Yes parents are free to raise spoiled little brats who've never been spanked. But dang nabbit if all of us have to pay for the brats education then they better pick up the dog poop I leave at the park.
But dang nabbit if all of us have to pay for the brats education then they better pick up the dog poop I leave at the park.
Blearc:
dang nabbit I love you, that was priceless!
Fedup: no one is forcing your children to do a damn thing.
And your remark
and the ones that don't are foolish, in my opinion.
Well I am happy and all that you have an opinion. That is fine and dandy.
Let me educate you on something.
There are fools having children.
There are children having children
I know of one woman who at 14 had her 1st set of twins, one died at birth. She then had a 2nd set of twins at 16. Those children would be in their 20's by now and no doubt have children of their own.
I know of another woman who on welfare with a couple children marries a man on welfare and they have more children, they kite checks and cheat the welfare system and drag their children through the stores with grease ridden clothes and no sense of self esteem.
I am sick to death of it!!!!
Someone must do something about this.
This is a small, minuscule, tiny effort in the grand scheme of things.
I can not believe there are people bent out of shape over 50 hours High School and 100 hours College, community service. In truth, for $4,000, you should be prepared to give more time. Do you get paid $40.00? I don't. After 15 years of working for the same company, I make just over $16. I would trade places with them in a heart beat.
DW, where in this plan does it specify that if a 12 year old does 50 hours a year of community service, he/she will receive $4,000? The plan doesn't outline ANY true details.
Again, after you're done venting your frustration about bad parents, look at my posts. I am ALL FOR giving back to the community. I am against the government mandating it. By all means, go out and work with these people YOU know who are such bad parents, and try to make a difference in their lives. That's what this is all about.
Perhaps we need to look at the broken welfare system, the crumbling school systems who have somehow forgotten to teach our children the basics, and allow faith-based organizations a little more freedom in reaching some of these at-risk youth. There are all sorts of options to look at before forcing 12 year olds to clean up our mess.
My oldest Daughter is 13 and already volunteers at a nursing home and she loves doing it .I did not ask her to she asked me if she could. anyways I think it is great that Obama's plan makes it easier for her to help and easier for us to send her to collage.
12 years old is Jr High School. Maybe an introduction through Boys or Girls club. Or even church ministries. No I don't see where they get tuition. They do get to build their resume.
Also they get to build
Self -esteem
Work ethic
World perspective vs self involvement.
Sometimes the best way out of depression (which is rampant in children entering the teenage "adult in training" years) is to see the world through others eyes.
Fedup: Which part of the mandate is "forcing your 12 year old" to do anything.
Do you see your 12 year old as being that way forever? Believe me that time comes and goes fast.
I agree the basics are missing from education. Religion can have a place, but if you are talking about forcing religion on people, there is another loaded area.
I could trail off into parental control again, but I think I already have "stepped in it " so to speak. No I am not a parent, but that does not mean I don't have a stake in this.
Not trying to start a fight, but a different way of thinking.
If I am not mistaken, Obama mentioned giving a $4000 credit for college tuition in exchange for 100 hours of community service. That sounds like a really good deal to me.
Jedipunk you are absolutely right and there is nothing new about it. You can go to the AmeriCorps website TODAY and see that they offe a colleg credit in exchange for service.
Better than that in helps to instill a work ethic.
A feeling like you are part of a whole.
For so many years, the argument against financial aid is that you get something for nothing. If high school students work after school, in some kind of continuing educational capacity, it serves 2 purposes:
Go Obama!!!!
Absolutely insane,
If anyone should do community work it should be the unproductive's collecting welfare.
Students should be offered a loan at low interest and to use there spare time doing what they please.
Hey, nice. My husband has to do a bunch of community service to his college, just to receive his diploma. and it's a private college. A tuition break would have been nice, lol.
Greg, they already do that. Welfare recipients must do minimum community service hours--thanks to Clinton; and college students get some of the best loan rates in the country.
There is nothing wrong with community service. If you're involved in extra curricular activities in elementary, middle or high school, chances are you're already doing well over 50 hrs/yr. (girl/boy scouts, soccer, band). As for college, most students will join some club: frat, young Republicans, newspaper; (that's what college students do on their spare time) they too end up doing way more community service than 100 hrs per year.
In college I was part of 3 organizations and there never was a weekend where some sort of service oriented event wasn't taking place. That doesn't mean you go to every event, but I can remember taking part in at least 2 service activities a month for a minimum of 4 hours each (soup kitchen, peer mentoring, litter cleanup) It never felt like a chore, it was something I did with my friends.
SEBS,
Student loans are out there but not everyone can get one without cosigners. I say let the government be responsible to collect from the student if the student doesn't pay it. This way every student can get a loan and go to college.
As for welfare recipients, I haven't heard of them doing community service, maybe it's in certain states.
SEBS... I have been working in the social service field for 4 years since graduating college. I have helped dozens of families get on welfare and financial assistance in the local communities that they live in. I have never, I repeat NEVER, seen any of my families do community service that was expected with welfare. I hope that in other states that community service is expected and enforced, but in Indiana, it doesn't exist. I believe that volunteer service should be expected and enforced when it comes to recieving any kind of community aid, because if we (the taxpayers and those who donate resources) give those items to those who truly need it, then there should be some kind of "giving back." I believe that our Welfare system needs a true "overhaul," because I am tired of paying my taxes for families I help get on welfare and I see no outcome, other than poor spending habits. I believe that if we created a system that helped those in need, then there should be time limit. I know other states have talked about it in the past, but I am not sure if there is a "time limit" for families that have lived on the system for years.
This is from the Dept of Health and Human Services:
The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (P.L. 104-193)
To count toward state work requirements, recipients will be required to participate in unsubsidized or subsidized employment, on-the-job training, work experience, community service, 12 months of vocational training, or provide child care services to individuals who are participating in community service.
I agree student loans should be made more widely available. The requirements are crazy. I also think all students receiving loans should have to take a mandatory course to understand exactly what they're getting into. This would cut down on defaults and make loans more affordable.
Actually students can get government loans without a co-signer. Private loans are a different story and are much more predatory.
I think this is a great idea. Especially in areas where parental involvement is non existent. We work in a small school, and the parent participation is horrible.
Hey Greg,
Our country has been doing it that way for years and there are many defaults (me included). You graduate, and can not pay back the ridiculous rates (at one point they wanted $450.00 a month from me) try to work it out and fall into default.
This is a way of having a form of internship. You get work experience before you graduate and that goes on your resume.
Your way breeds laziness and an inability to move into the work force. I can not even begin to explain the amount of people I have seen in my time working that lack discipline. Not only at work but in school. How many college students fart around and then graduate unprepared?
The community service to get welfare issue is a tricky one. I see cases everyday where a person received cash assistance, medicaid or food stamps without having to do some form of work. But that is typically because the individual has been determined to be disabled. I have seen a large number of cases where an individual must do community service in order to get food stamps or cash assistance though. I still havent figured out how DJFS makes the determination who has to work and who doesnt.
I must say our welfare system needs overhauling and community service should be enforced. I live in NJ and I guess they are much stricter because I know people who work for Section 8 and the welfare program--you will be taken off the rolls and lose your benefits if you aren't working, attending school or doing community service.
NIC:
Kind of a different situation (only a little.. sort of the end game of the situation)
I happen to agree with you. Welfare sucks. My mother was on it for 5 years after she left our father. She went to school while raising 3 kids (including one autistic) while on the system. I babysat at 12 until 1 in the morning to buy myself clothes and supplies for school. Getting off the system is hard. The minute you get a job you are cut off. There is a 2 to 4 week leeway before you can pay the cost of living.
It sickens me that someone who can not read or write considers them self to be handicap. My brother is 37 years old, autistic and works 3 to 4 days a week in maintenance. Granted it is a special New York State program, but he works.
I don't like excuses. I believe in a hand up, not out.
Sounds good! I'm down for that!
Many countries have some sort of service requirement for young people.
Good idea.
they have that already
all my loans were consolidated under the gov.. the gov is pretty cool in that you really dont have to pay them back for ages and they wont harrass ya too bad. or cost you too much.
many states like mine now offer full scholarships to those who maintain a B average.
last how can you attack this when it is voluntary.. no one is forcing the kid to do 100 hours for $4000.. just liek no one forced my friends to joint he military for college money.. just like no one ois forcing anyone to join the america coprs program for college money.. and in my state..t hey wont force you to teach for a year to cut your student laons down.
I say anythign that offers more ability for kids to go to college is a good thing.. and anythign that makes them actually put in effort to get it, is a great thing.
Kids tend to be more concerned about new found freedom, partiing and getting laid, that it would be good to make kids prove they want to go to college.
thats what happened to me, I was given money and didnt appreciate it, dropped out after a year of hellacious partiing.. when i wanted to go back to school there was no money, so i had to work for it.. lets just say i took it far more seriously when i had to work for it.
This "Uncle Sam Wants You" sounds a hellava lot better than the one I grew up with.
Anyone old enough to remember the draft?
joulesbeef:
So far. Have you seen Rahm Emanuel's call for a mandatory 3 months of "Community Service" for people aged 18 - 26?
$4000 for 100 hours of community service? That $40 an hour ro $80,000 annual rate. Not bad pay for doing "volunteer" work.
$4000 in a tuition credit represents an investment in the future of our nation. I'm fine with that. It's a far cry from giving these students cash in their pockets. Not to mention the lessons they'll receive in hard work and patriotism. Money well spent, if you ask me.
No kidding welfare needs an overhaul!
I have a friend who is married and has three kids. They moved to Colorado so her husband could get his degree in aeronomics. She got a contracting job with the government (it's how I met her). The job didn't offer any health benefits, nor did her husband's school. But because her husband was in school (60 hours a week), they didn't qualify for any sort of state assistance, even for her children. She only made $11/hour and her husband couldn't get a job because he had to care for the kids when she was working since they couldn't afford after school care. If she had been offered a chance to do community service in exchange for welfare or healthcare for her kids, she would have jumped at it - but no one ever mentioned it to her. Essentially, because she worked hard and her husband was working to better himself to provide a better life for his family, they couldn't get assistance. If her husband had been a deadbeat, they could have.
Luckily, she was hired full time with the government and now receives those excellent benefits for her whole family. Her husband has received a grant from Lockheed Martin to continue his education and will have a job with them when he graduates. So, it's worked out for them, but theirs is a very happy story. Unfortunately, my friend's diabetes went untreated for so long that she now has related illnesses that will cost more time and money to be treated, and could easily have been prevented had they the care or money to get it done.
What a perfect way to look at it.
Lerianis:
This is true, many cashiers are on food stamps and HEAP (heating assistance), because you can not get enough hours and are on minum wage.
I did the AmeriCorps program. It was challenging, but worth it. You get a small living stipend during your year of service and an education award that is a little over $4,000. However currently in order to get the education award from AmeriCorps, you must do at least 1700 hours of community service in 10/12 months.
I don't know where all of these commentors think we are going to get the "free college credit money" for millions of students, but I am pretty sure taxpayers will somehow have to pay for these college tuition credits. Community service should be reseved for welfare recipients and criminals. We are now beginning to see the true Barack Obama plans for this country after he has been elected and it looks like he wants us all to put in our free time for the good of the state. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Maybe Russia following the 1917 Communist Revolution or China following the October1949 Communist Revolution. We have fought wars to stop Communism, Facism and Socialism form spreading all over the world and now we promote the socialist ideals as a means to getting a college education. I worked full time and went to college part time with no extra help from the state or federal govenment and I am now sending my kids to college with no extra help from the state or federal govenment. I surely do not want to pay for all the millions of other students out there that think they should get $40.00 an hour doing make work jobs to pay for their tuition. Why don't these students go get real jobs that actually benefit a business or people and pay for their college tuition with their own hard earned money. This is called Capitalism, it has worked wonderfully for this country since the 1776 American Revolution. I guess Barack Obama's lack of experience in running this govenment is starting to show. I hope Obama knows a thing or two about how Democracy works
Most people don't have time to do community service because they have work and school. Plus whatever else they gotta do in a day.
Say that no matter what, they gotta do community service, where will they find the time. You gotta reat sometime.
I know this because I'm in school full time and have a full time job. And now I gotta work OT which is killing me.
But who knows, maybe it will work. What do I know?
@BKELLY1 -
How about taking money from programs that don't work? And what's so wrong with the taxpayers investing in education more? Right now we're spending over $5 billion a month in Iraq - so if we cut spending there (or end it with an eventual withdrawl) then that would give us quite a bit of money to put towards this program.
I'm still amazed at how low a priority education is to many in this country. I don't have children and never plan on having children, but I know that a quality education is so crucial in a society - without it we have nothing. I'm willing for more of my money to go to education if it means giving our young people a chance at creating a better America and a better world.
Sounds like another socialistic idea. Maybe we should require people who are collecting welfare check now to work. It also sounds a little to much like his "community organizer Acorn" ideals are showing. Very scary. I really don't like the sounds of his ideas. To dictator like.
President-Elect Barack Obama spoke frequently during his campaign about his plans to assist with college education, through community service. This is not a new idea just because he won the election. It sounds like there were too many people putting him down, rather than listening to him. Not surprising.
What is wrong with community service? Do youngsters today (those 29 & under believe that everything is supposed to be handed to you? I call your generation the "Entitled Generation". You don't seem to know the meaning of hard work. You don't seem to care about others. From what I can see, you walk around with your Blackberries, talking on your bluetooth, running into people because you're completely self-absorbed. It's "me me me me", "screw you", "what do I get out of it", blah, blah, blah. All the while expecting everything for nothing. It's actually quite a disgrace.
My generation (I'm 47, btw) understands hard work, sacrifice, and work ethic. We feel pride in a job well done, and don't expect anything in return. We understand that those who come behind us will inherit what we've done and we do our best to do right by them. We understand that our elders are our history and should be revered and taken care of.
If only each person on this vine stopped complaining about this and actually did something, like volunteer at a senior center for an hour a week, or offer to take a neighbor to a doctor appointment, how much better you would feel about yourself and what a blessing it would be to the recipient of your kindness. Then if you tried it again the next week, with the same result . . . in no time at all your "community service" hours would be complete and you would have made a HUGE difference.
Many hands make light work! So stop complaining and get up and do something! You might actually like it!
Wow...I thought the right was the patriotic crowd. You guys are sounding like a bunch of spoiled children. What? If it's war, killing people, and blowing S*** up you're OK with that but if it's something as mundane as citizenship, a little effort and making a better country all you can do is scream oppression?
I see your colors from all the arguments here; laziness, self-interest and bullying the weak has never really been the hallmark of a patriotic citizen, but it sure fits the bill for overindulged, uncared for, and undereducated young-uns.
Seriously, folks, if you haven't got the drift - the world is moving away from that type of thinking and there's not a whole lot you can do to stop it. And before you think this is a power thing (as that's your bag) it's really more of a human development thing.
Quit kicking the people who are down and out and start acting like adults.
you are a LIAR, you completely reword in your description cting like you copied it word for word, stating this is required where as if you read the article it states he will ask you to do this. nice you are a piece of trash!
Lush is correct. Reread the real article. Jedipunk duped us. What a waste of time and energy. I feel foolish and take part of the blame, but Jedipunks articles will no longer get any of my attention. Worse than the "news" we get on TV. Shame.
I guess you just got Jedi-punked.
by setting a goal
That says it all you headline makes it look like it will be mandantory! Please change it.
We do not want to misinform anyone do we.
You are not mistaken; that is indeed the offer he proposed before. I wish I made $40/hr. Of course, now that the election is over and the votes are no longer needed, the numbers will probably change dramatically.
. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Actual^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Obama Administration will call on Americans to serve in order to meet the nation’s challenges. President-Elect Obama will expand national service programs like AmeriCorps and Peace Corps and will create a new Classroom Corps to help teachers in underserved schools, as well as a new Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, and Veterans Corps. Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^As Posted^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Selective editing
Logdump. Have you noticed he hasn't been active in the thread for his own article. He certainly intended to misinform. click the excamation point above and to the right of headline and click innacurate.
The very cool part of this.... Finally I am seeing a lot less of the personal attacks, a lot more discussion really trying to get to the facts.
As for the public service thing. It looks like it has been clarified above, but Obama's idea does not require service. It offers an additional alternative for those trying to get an education. You can participate and get the benefits, or not. Your choice. This is no different than college programs/loan forgiveness for joining the military, the Peace Corp, or any number of other programs that both sides of the aisle have supported for years.
As for the comments that it must be funded. Sure it must. This is an investment in America. Again, no different than the GI Bill or many other programs that incentivize national needs, help people and build our infrastructure at the same time.
As for student loans instead. Why? They are already offered. And NO, you don't need a cosigner, particularly for the federally guaranteed student loans. Completely private student loans are different, with higher interest rates, etc. Let the buyer beware. The default rate on student loans is atrocious, but per the comment above that the government should enforce collection, they do. Student loans are one of the few debts that can't normally be forgiven by bankruptcy... You can't easily run away from them. Although a relative of mine once declared bankruptcy and somehow was able to get his/her student loan included(I found it distasteful, but also know that this is not the norm..).
As for a post I saw above where someone complained that they couldn't do it because they both worked and went to school so didn't have time. I have no sympathy. As noted in another post, this is the equivalent of 80 dollars an hour. While I was working toward finishing my Bachelor's and on my Master's degree, I was working 60 hours per week and taking 20+ credits. I also know personally of many single mothers who wanted to get ahead, so were working minimum wage jobs, going to school AND rasing a child. We would have LOVED to have been able to get some additional help by having the opportunity to serve the public AND make 80 dollars an hour. People should not expect a free lunch and it all boils down to how bad you really want it.
I understand that with the cost of an education these days, it can be more difficult to do it on your own. As important, there is a dangerous trap in that student loans are available in such large amounts that make it way too easy for young people to slip into a huge debt before they ever start their professional careers. I wonder if that easy access to student loans may be just another form of the situation that got us into the housing crisis, where easy credit drove up prices. But that is another topic. The bottom line is that life is not necessarily easy, and it definitely should not be a free ride. It is also possible to do it. People are doing it all the time.
My beliefs are quite liberal in terms of compassion for others and for the most part consider myself a strong Democrat. At the same time, I understand and agree with the concerns about personal responsibility. If we keep the more sane dialoge I am seeing on a lot of this board, we can see that if we get past the blind partisanship that has been so venemous over the last couple of months, we can educate each other on the facts AND come to see that at heart, we really share most of the same concerns and values.
One last stab.... The cynical posts from the "Independents" who point to the politics and say it is all cr** so we should be revolutionaries or hermits or something. Again, personal responsibility. The system is what it is, and we are all a part of it whether we like it or not. We all share responsibility for what we end up with, and if we don't like it, we should stand up for what we believe in and try to make it better. As bleak a picture as some would like to make of our culture and our country, as a person who has done extensive travel in multiple continents around the world, I can assure you that most of the rest of the world would love to have what we have come to take for granted.
I guess for you Right Wing Republican Conservatives CHRISTIANs, many of you want to sit at home watch Limbaugh, Henneny, Fox news, and other Right Consevative Channels and mediums complaining about Liberalism, Decent, honor, tolerance, diversity, ethics, morality, Socialism etc.
The rest of us will be participating in some way to help rebuild United States and make it better. Many Right Wing Republican Conservatives Christians are selfish to the end.
BTW, we don't need your help. We will ensure the Left Liberal media will be aware lazy selfish behinds not help rebuidling United States. My guess Christianity to you is just for show and something to do on Sundays and Bible Whining nights about the world not going your way.
To clear up any confusion, here is the link directly to Obamas programs:
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/service/
Aalof Alot,
It is divisive inflammatory comments like you just made that are actually part of the problem right along with some "right wingers". I happen to be a Christian that took the time to research and clear up a divisive and inaccurate article about Obamas plan. I did not vote for him but he is now my president-elect and I will support him when I agree with him and question him when I do not. I will pray for him and pray for my country. You see, it is not just one side that is always wrong. Its the trouble makers on both sides. I'm sure you don't want to be one of them. I challenge you to be open minded enough to not be bigoted toward a terminology and look at each person as an individual. I can then show the same respect for you. There are many Christians that make me cringe to call myself a Christian and there are many that make me proud to be one. But how people behave, regardless of their belief system speaks volumes as to their motive and intent.
Lush & Richard 594237:
I read the article. What is so different from the seed entry?
These various corps sound like good ideas.
Do you know how many injured veterans there are today??? Do you know how much an Occupational Therapist makes??? This could inspire someone young (and full of energy) to go into a field of study with valuable experience. Maybe even specialize in something.
Do you know how many older folks have no one to care for them?
Do you know how many kids are on the street, while their parents are working 2 or 3 jobs?
How many times, in the course of a day, do you see someone just toss something on the ground? The response has been to criminalize it. Either by fine or jail. What if you make it that persons job to clean up? Put them in charge of an area to keep clean.
The young do have pride, they just need to be given the job or opportunity to express it. Accomplishment is better than any drug.
Hi DragonWoman,
The difference is here:
nowhere in the original article does it state "require" yet the author transposed it into his headline and body. I have since been to the Obama website, which does not use require. It is all voluntary as it stands. All my posts objecting to it were based on "required". I have no problem with it now that I have eliminated the authors additions.
And I do know the amount of "latchkey kids" out there, as many of them that my daughters go to school with seek refuge at my home, where I and my wife watch over them and give them the same good guidence we give our daughters.
I agree with your above post, but I already take good care of my daughters and teach them well in all these areas, we volunteer where and when I choose, so when I felt the government was going to step in and take my freedom of choice because others were not responsible, i was unable to agree. Sorry for the separate post but having computer problems :)
Richard:
I think the headline is definitely misleading.
However, to be fair to Jedipunk, the original version of the description of the 50 hours did include the word "require."
I atually started a post on the amendment...
I won't link it, pre thread-jacking etiquette.
Just a heads-up.
Richard,
This is one area where having college students volunteer would work. When I was taking college social welfare classes years ago, we had to have so many volunteer hours. One thing I did was volunteer at a home close to one of the cities elementary schools, what I did was basically have groups of kids who came there after school, instead of wandering around or going home alone. We could help them with their homework, give them snacks, organize games, just give them some place to be and something to do.
Hi upswing,
I posted the link directly to Obama's service program above. No "requirement", and I would be willing to give benefit of the doubt if Jedipunk bothered to follow up here on his own article, but for now I only have the article he posted, and a misrepresentation of his headline and body. In the meantime the commentors on this thread (including me previously) are going haywire with the misinformation. However my main issue is the misinformation itself. Although I previously was obviously angered by this, Jedipunks intentions are at this time secondary. Funny thing is, I'm not even a Democrat, I just want the ability to comment on the truth, not fiction.
Arizonan, I find your comment as well as your efforts are commendable. Volunteerism is a great thing.
If you click on the "article" link Jedi provided, it goes directly to the transitional website for the new administration. What he posted is copied verbatim from Obama's change.gov website, which does in fact use the word "require" in connection to Jr. and Sr. High students.
Perhaps he stated something different on another website; if so, there needs to be some clarification on PE Obama's part.
Hi fedup,
I just clicked on his article four the fourth time this morning and all I see is "set a goal",
what am I missing? I am not, obviously, trying to cause problems as you know from my agreement with your previous posts, but I cannot find required anywhere concerning middle, high school.
This is why an author should moderate his seeds.
Yes, it NOW says set a goal people.
I did not change it. Go out to Google-cache and read it.
Richard, I just clicked on the "view article" button again, and it takes me directly to the change.gov website, under "america serves". What I'm viewing is exactly what he posted.
However, when I type in the web address, the wording is completely different. Not sure what happened.
Jedi? Any answers for us?
They changed the text. The copy you are seeing when you follow the link is likely your local cache and the copy you get from typing directly is pulling new.
Why they changed it could be the result of the flood of people seeing it and wondering what the hell is going on and seeing our comments.
Jedipunk is correct. When he seeded the article the website read exactly as it does above. Evidently the website has since been changed. As all my quotes on this thread were taken from the original seeded article just like Jedi's quotes. I have a hard time believing anyone would think everyone yesterday would have missed this ;-)
I am a little bit happier with the way it currently reads:-)
Sorry, you feel that way. Had you taken the time to investigate you would know that I seeded my article before they changed their site.
So, no, I am not a liar...but you are lazy.
Memories from Cuba, educated people cutting the sugar cane and no more grew.
Registering Republicans will be valid for the program?
I already do about 70 hours a year and wish I could do more. Helping others makes me feel closer to my community and I've met a lot of interesting people along the way. Community service is the basis of the american spirit in my opinion, and I love the idea of initiatives that get young people to get more involved in their communities.
This sounds like slavery in a totalitarian state. It is also anti-American. America isn't about service to the state. Nazi Germany and the USSR were.
AynRand
What about this reminds you of slavery. There is no requirement, just opportunity. There are many children in this country that cannot afford college and that number is rising with layoffs and the credit crunch. I for one will encourage my son as much as possible to participate although we have a statewide scholarship program in my state.
I was always raised that the things you work for have more value than things that are given to you.
If the government is willing to provide you an education and opportunity, you have a problem with the requirement to put in a little sweat equity?
Today you are right but if you look at the times when this country was at its greatest it was all about service and sacrifice on behalf of the country. Isn't that what heroes are made of? If you don't believe that, visit Ft Sam Houston and tell that to a soldier in rehab after returning from war.
Our military academys have been doing it for years. West Point, the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy ALL require service to country at the completion of your education.
"If the government is willing to provide you an education and opportunity, you have a problem with the requirement to put in a little sweat equity?"
The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
"Our military academys have been doing it for years. West Point, the Naval Academy and the Air Force Academy ALL require service to country at the completion of your education."
You are mistaken. This isn't service to the country. Military personnel properly go in the military for selfish reasons--to protect themselves, their families, and the country that protects their rights--not because they want to kill themselves for the Fuhrer.
So AR you are saying that with the global competition and this country falling behind in every level of education, our government should just take a hands-off attitude? With those thoughts, this country will be driven into the ground. I guess more of a caste system would be more to your liking.
Uh excuse me? What makes you think that everyone goes into the Naval Academy or any other military school for 'Love of Country' ior any other branch of the military. It is a well known fact that the majority of those who enter the military in an enlisted state are from backgrounds that provide little other opportunity. Look at the disproportionate number of Blacks in the military as opposed to the actual population pre 9/11. With your reasoning, no one would ever leave the military, it was primarily about opportunity before the upswing post 9/11.
That being said, with your reasoning no one would leave the military before retirement and the enlistment numbers wouldn't take such a hit in good economic times.
"The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
So AR you are saying that with the global competition and this country falling behind in every level of education, our government should just take a hands-off attitude? With those thoughts, this country will be driven into the ground. I guess more of a caste system would be more to your liking.
Uh excuse me? What makes you think that everyone goes into the Naval Academy or any other military school for 'Love of Country' ior any other branch of the military. It is a well known fact that the majority of those who enter the military in an enlisted state are from backgrounds that provide little other opportunity. Look at the disproportionate number of Blacks in the military as opposed to the actual population pre 9/11. With your reasoning, no one would ever leave the military, it was primarily about opportunity before the upswing post 9/11.
That being said, with your reasoning no one would leave the military before retirement and the enlistment numbers wouldn't take such a hit in good economic times."
There is not such thing as global competition. Competition only exists among individuals who want to compete in something. I am getting educated and pursuing my career, and I hope others do the same. But we aren't merchantinialists--it isn't America vs. the world. It is individuals living their lives.
You haven't answered by argument. You are only providing more evidence for me. Since many people go into the military for money, they do it for proper, selfish reasons, not for selfless sacrifice to America.
An additional thought on the following comment:
Slavery in a totalitarian was where this country has been headed under the Bush administration. The exception being, the 'government' was Corporate America. Evidenced by record profits and stagnant wages.
I know of no better definition for the corporations raping the economy while rewarding of workers was virtually non-existent. If stagnant wages don't convince you, just ask migrant workers.
"Slavery in a totalitarian was where this country has been headed under the Bush administration. The exception being, the 'government' was Corporate America. Evidenced by record profits and stagnant wages."
Bush is anti-capitalist and anti-business. Businesses have been under assault under Bush. For example: Sarbanes-Oxley, the call for windfall taxes, calls for CEO pay to be cut, not being able to drill in ANWR or off shore, massive regulations on business, the fed, the community reinvestment act, fannie mae and freddie mac, etc.
Bush and McCain and Obama are helping this country go toward socialism.
Uh AR
YOU are providing fodder for MY argument. I SAID
YOU SAID :
Never once did I say it was altruism but that the opportunity to further yourself has ALWAYS been provided by our Military Academies. Why should that concept not be expanded, unless of course you are a proponent to continue handouts.
NOW: Global competiton is a true fact. Without being able to compete globally, turning out jobs in the sciences, and yes economic fields, this country would be left at the mercy of those who seem to be outpacing us in these fields. Our health care and economic health would be at the mercy of the willingness of these countries to leave us in peace with our uneducated majorities. And you think that would happen?
You say you are completing your education. Do you use any Government help? Even Federal Student loans? If so you will simply pay this back in a different way. If not, you are among the lucky few who have liquid resources to do so. And please don't say that you worked hard to get the money to pay for your entire education. Without education, there are no jobs, that has never been more evident than it is today. Or is it that you just have a problem wiht a different form of payback?
AynRand:
You are talking about 2 centuries ago. You are talking about before the Industrial Revolution, World Wars, Atomic Bombs, Nuclear Age, Microsoft Revolution, Sexual Revolution.
We are living in a different time.
Women don't just stay at home and pop out babies.
They are in the work place, competing with men.
America was founded on pushing others off the land and taking it over, and yes SLAVERY.
We have to compete with the world now (not against it) and to do that America MUST produce stronger, intelligent, capable individuals.
We must also produce people who can function.
Have you seen the condition of our youth.
What the hell have you done to change it???
This is a step in the right direction.
You need to pull your head out the sands of the past and face the future.
That is the only way to grow.
Again AR:
Under the Bush administration the tax cuts and corporate deregulation at a failed attempt at trickle down economics does not support to your argument. What it points to is the caste system you seemed determine to continue to drive this country to. A society of have and have nots where the have nots serve the haves. That has NEVER been what this country was about, at least not since the Civil Rights movement. Since true slavery has been outlawed and there is no longer a race of people singled out to be the lower caste, your theory holds no water.
Now the division seems to be based on income and Corporate America and the last administration seemed to want to entrench that as much as possible.
The government shouldn't provide "opportunity" and any sort of education. America wasn't like that in the beginning. America is about protecting your rights and leaving you alone, not about being your mother.
So basically Ayn, we should continue to sit on our butts while countries around the world pass us in education? I think that it would benefit our children, whether we have the money to put them through school or not, to perform some sort of service, especially if it provides them the opportunity to get further in their education.
Anyrand
Since many people go into the military for money, they do it for proper, selfish reasons, not for selfless sacrifice to America.
As a member of the military who has served for 15 years, you have just insulted me and if you made the type of money that we make you would never say that we join for money. I could make two probably three time more outside the military. I don't consider myself a selfish person and I don't do things for selfish reasons. That's okay you are entiltled to your opinion. Have a nice day!
Well, we tried unfettered capitalism and it resulted in a huge bill that is as oppressive to me as the totalitarian state you identify. Unfortunately you "me first" types are just too damn greedy, unethical and immoral for the rest of us. Your party is over, crawl back into the woodwork with the rest of the pests and take "The Fountainhead" with you.
Not quite....it says:
No more, no less. Could you cite a source saying this is voluntary? And not his voluntary for college tax credit....since middle schoolers and high schoolers are not paying tuition for college.
Many high schools already require a community service element for graduation.
Chum: I realize that. My son's high school has several different diploma's with different endorsements, one of them is community service. It is not required, but if you do the service you get an endorsement on your diploma for it.
It is incorrect to say it is voluntary, when the word "required" is part of the sentence. If it is a requirement to advance in grade or receive your diploma (which I am fine with) than it really isn't voluntary, is it? Or are you saying earning the diploma is voluntary?
For a group of people who claim to live their lives by logic and reason, the inability to see the world as an evolving place, the constant morality plays, and utter devotion to the supreme being: the real rand, must make day to day life impossible. Maybe her reanimated coprse should have ran under the U.S. taxpayers ticket.
There is literally no problem with this IF IT IS VOLUNTARY. And it sounds like it is. It sounds like you can CHOOSE to either pay your tuition in full, or get a tuition break (payment) to do community service.
This is a much better plan that that which is already implemented in many colleges across the states...they already FORCE students to do it as part of their curriculum. Not fulfilling the community service agreement means no graduation, no diploma.
Bigger:
I agree.
Based on what in this article? Could you site where it says that the those in middle school or high school get a break on tuition and through what means? All it says is what it says, and not once does the article use the word voluntary.
AmeriCorps is voluntary, but is it still voluntary if you are required to serve in it? No, then it is fulfilling a requirement. I have no problem with community service being tied to a diploma. A diploma is voluntary in the sense that there is no law requiring one, and I think every state has a legal drop-out age. However, middle schoolers are not in the voluntary stage, because they are legally required to go to school, so nothing about requiring them to perform 50 hours of community service is voluntary.
I'm with you Crystal.
I conceed his plans call for action that is not voluntary, but what is wrong with students being made to do community service. It builds character and gets people out of individualistic thinking and more about community. Its not a bad thing. How will this be bad for children?
As for college students, the only way I see this being enforced is tied to Federal Loans or Grants. Again I have no problem with that. What wrong with community service
2.20 I think we should all contribute to society on a volunteer basis. Make the opportunities available, but don't force the service. Now, there are exceptions to this rule. I do believe in the draft in the time of national emergency in order to form an army. There are things the government must require for the sake of the nation. Public service is not one of them. It becomes dangerously akin to trying to make us all look the same, act the same and think the same. I'm sure that is not your intention. Individual rights is a good thing for the country. In our freedom we are inspired to serve our country in ways a government wonk making up a list of required tasks could never imagine. (I'm not spamming, just too lazy to retype and reword)
AynRand what is wrong with doing something for your country? Or the betterment of our childrens education.
Heck, going to a kindergarten and reading to some kids a few times a week, will not hurt you!
Going to shelve books at the public library is not going to kill you!
Helping an elderly person get to the doctor if they have no transportation or bringing them a meal is not going to hurt you!
Jeeze! If you want to be so seperate from society, why don't you find you a deserted island somewhere? You are part of this country just like the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with doing your civic duty. If our sons and daughters can be sent off to a war they should not be fighting (Iraq), then the least you could do is help out here on the homefront!
4real: I have a couple of problems....first of all posters saying it is voluntary without a way to back it up. My second is that too much is unexplained. Required for what? Do the parents get to choose where their children will be serving and in what way? Will service thru the church count? It is stepping on too many toes without any explaination right now. My family does community service, but does it where we see the need and where it reflects our values and morals. I do not want the government telling me, a responsible parent, how to raise my child, what values and morals to instill, etc. Do you?
Slippery Slope! That's my favorite phrase these days. You start down a path and you loose your footing. Gravity takes over and down you fall. It is the beginning of the path to the "downfall" of personal freedom. Compelling service at this level in programs constructed by -- gosh -- a government employee who has no vision perhaps? That's the least offensive scenario. Soon we are compelled to do all sorts of things and suddenly we are slaves of the government, compelled to do all sorts of things all hours of the day. FREEDOM... Give me liberty or give me death!!!
babgrl:
Thank you. This is what I am talking about. It does not have to be military service per say, but the people who have served a couple years (in non-combat or combat) take to college far different than those who do. They enter the work place with a different ethic. A purpose, a focus.
And one is supposed to take "Ayn Rand" seriously about .....anything?
Freakish.
Rights without concomittant responsibilities is an imbalanced and unworkable morass that devolves into anarchy.
Look around you. See what your country gave you. Give something back. It's the moral thing to do.
lol only a stupid country doesnt provide education.. it is one of the few gov programs that produces more dollars than it takes in.
hey ayarand..remember northern exposure?
you know many companies do that as well.. i had a company that would trade service for schooling. And you have a choice..a nd as pointed out before.. it is nothign new.. you really cant get much more american
Juno and Savannah,
I hear you on the liberty aspects. Great discussion!
Here's a thought, minors already have limited liberties. Kids wouldn't care whether the nation or the parent was mandating it...they won't like it either way. If they are provide some freedom of choice within the mandate, isn't that the same as allowing electives for graduation?
It does state for middle school and high school students, those of whom don't need a tuition credit just yet. As a mother of a child in middle school and 3 in high school I can't imagine what a nightmare that could be. With a full course load and 3 hours of homework a night I wonder where they will find the time to fit in 50 hours before the end of their senior year, considering one is a sophomore now and the other a senior and get credit for it while they are working part-time to start saving for college. It's a great concept but forcing them to fulfill this requirement before they graduate is just adding more pressure on them. Who do you think is going to drive them around while they do this ? It has nothing to do with lazy parents since most are out there busting their butts to put food on the table, let alone trying to provide a college education to their kids. This $4,000 tuition credit doesn't touch jack when college is $12,000-$20,000 a year !
How do we differentiate between a student who has worked their butt off to get into a good college and hasn't had time to pick up trash or read to kindergarteners, from someone who worked at McD's, got barely passing grades, BUT spent a few weeks here and there doing community service? You think one is more motivated than the other to excel? You think that an adult returning to school while holding down a full-time job has less motivation or focus because he/she doesn't have 100 extra hours?
My husband is returning to school, while I work full time, and I would like to finish my teaching degree when he's done and working full time. We both work at our church (teaching, working with youth, etc.), which some would consider community service. Do we qualify for a tax credit? Who decides what is/isn't community service?
There are too many questions and no real answers yet.
Honestly though, 50 hours a week over a 9 month school year averages out to less than two hours a week. That's as easy as staying after school for a day or two and tutoring somebody.
As to the "There are no real answers" I'd respond that "This isn't yet a real program." It's good that these concerns are coming out, but if this outline doesn't address them yet I don't think that's a condemnation of the idea. Since Obama doesn't even get sworn in till late January, I think there's plenty of time to flesh this out.
EJ canavan, 2.29 & fedupwithliberals 2.30,
I agree,
I believe if mandatory community service is what Obama wants then let him go to the welfare recipients that are healthy and the prisons, of course with the prisoners they would have to start the Chain Gang again.
Interesting points....
Eric: You are correct. People are getting bent out of shape over a policy idea that hasn't even been developed. Nothing has been decided. Relax people and let the new administration take shape.
Great to stay on top of things but to persecute before all the facts have been laid out before us is just silly.
Greg maybe if he starts with the kids and helps teach them responsibility he wont have so many people on welfare and in prison to visit.
You obviously don't understand the concept of slavery. Slaves aren't given any choices.
What's wrong with teaching our children to give to their communities? I think it's a damned good idea and one that will teach them to care about where they live, not just live there.
If there were a program like this available when I was going to school, I would have JUMPED at the opportunity.
Silly Greg, Ever see those orange jumpsuits on the side of the road picking up garbage? Those aren't the girl scouts, they're prisoners...no chain gang needed, just a burly corrections officer and a rifle.
Okay, all the comments above are interesting. I have a huge problem with demanding community service of any high school students. Why? Because as someone above pointed out, h.s. students are already overburdened with classes, homework mandatory clubs (if you want to get into college, you MUST belong to teams or clubs..no way out of that), and on top of that, who has to cart these kids around if they aren't yet 17, or can't afford their own car?
As for college students, again, I see no problem with it if it was done on a voluntary basis in which tuition credits were at stake.
Look, helping the community is a noble thing...a moral thing...the right thing to do...but at what point does it become burdensome or akin to indentured servitude? Look at it this way...if we required community service before we would give people welfare payments, or food stamps, or any other form of aid, it would cause an outrage.
Community service requirements are causing my husband a very real burden. He works his rear end off - a good 10 hours, minimum per day (at the office. That doesn't count how many nights he's had to log on while at home and fix problems remotely until 2 or 3 in the morning). Then he has his CAPS program (adult college), which takes up 2 evenings per week (1 for classes and one for a mandatory study group). We have three kids. yeah, he really needs to be doing the silly things on his community service list like scraping gum off sidewalks. LMAO). And he gets to pay $350 or so per credit for the "honor").
I'd rather give to charity at this point.
Sorry bigger I dont buy the argument that community service would be a burden on high schoolesr. They still have find time to party they can find an hour to handout food at a shelter
People keep posting how we should be focusing on welfare recipents and prisoners. How about focusing on keeping kids from getting on welfare and out of jail. We have all acknowledge kids dont always learn life lessons they need at home. What is wrong with exposing them to work and responisbility. I cant believe we are arguing this. An ounce of prevention............
Ha! Good point, 4real?
-I would imagine GPA and test scores (ACT/SAT) would probably sort out any potential "injustices" you might be worrying about mate ;-)
When I was in High School (like 8 years ago... not a long time) Key Club was one of the best clubs for a college resume, through which I did a lot of community service, up to and including Habitat for Humanity. It isn't hard to integrate this stuff into the existing framework, especially when 100 hours over 9 months is like 3-4 hours a week.
I think people are overthinking this community service thing. If you're in high school, spend two days a week as an assistant coach for your school's basketball team. Or tutor somebody twice a week. Read to some kindergarteners who are waiting for their parents to pick them up. Again, twice a week.
There are 8,760 hours in a year, and over 4 years of high school, that's 35,040 hours. And you're saying 50 hours is a problem? That's 1/2 hour a week. They can handle 1/2 an hour less of Facebook or Wii.
Don't take my Wii!!! Wait! I am done with college..,.whew!!!
It is when my oldest is home to watch my youngest after school so I don't have to pay $120 a week to put him in a BASE program. What really irritates me is the view on teenagers. Not all are out there drinking and hanging around the neighborhood. My oldest son is a fantastic kid. He had great grades and will be graduating early this year. He doesn't run the neighborhood at night and he is most certainly not unsupervised. By the time I get home at night it's already 6:00PM. He has spent 3 hours watching his 2 brothers and to me this is family service. Your assuming that every kid is coming home and playing on "Facebook or Wii" but what you don't know is my son worked his butt off to get to graduate and will spend anywhere from 2-4 hours doing homework aside from his family obligations. I can barely afford groceries besides a Wii. Add to this working 24-30 hours a week. There are so many families like this now, especially with 2 parents working.
Some adults need to get off their soap-box and realize that there are decent kids out there and parents that are raising them community conscience. Kim, until you have walked in my shoes you have no right to assume my kids can handle more than what they are doing now. I never said we don't already do community volunteering, but to make it madatory is pressure not needed.
America was founded on notions of common welfare. Haven't you heard about it? It's in the Declaration of Independence. This nation does not and never did promote total and complete independence of the individual from the needs of the community around him or her. For this form of total anarchy libertarianism, you would have to do what Marlon Brando and Raymond Burr did and buy your own island in the South Pacific.
Ayn Rand's theories are very attractive in the abstract, but, like any other utopian system, impossible to implement. No utopian system can ever account for human frailty and fault.
Okay, would you all back an employer-mandatory community service plan? Your employer says that if you want to continue your employment you need to do 2 hours per week of community service...
Is that a good thing or a bad one?
Yeah, I am not down with required community service to the state. In exchange for an education though it is a great idea. Student loans should be allowed to be paid down voluntarily with community service. Everybody wins!
To take it one step further, how about people that want to work but can't find a job. Shouldn't the state offer them some level of employment suitable to their physical condition? Wouldn't that be cheaper and more productive than welfare? The Job corps is fine but that is geared to the young. What about middle aged or older citizens that still have something to contribute?
biggerthebetter you said the following:
Which to me is ABSOLUTELY irrelevant to this discussion. First of ALL it is NOT going to be governemnt mandated to perform community to service to attend college. What difference would it make if it was. If you have seem a college app lately, they LOOK for students who have performed community service and it is considered during the acceptance progress.
If you want FEDERAL MONEY to attend college, you will need to give back something in exchange.
Do me a favor, give a different alternative that will not tax arecent grad with 10s of thousands of dollars of debt upon graduation while at the same time giving back to the community.
I believe you can still get yourself up to your eyeballs in debt if you prefer.
No just to graduate from junior high school and high school. people will still be free to attend any college that does not require more than a sixth grade education.
What you are giving back is essentially worthless, at the very least nowhere near the amount being paid out. So it is not an exchange of services for an equal exchange of money so the give back part doesn't really hold up. How about they give back the 4,000 within x years of graduation.
dc now that post was just RIDICULOUS!
Where in the world does it mention anything bout being a requirement to graduate from high school...lol!! This is the time period in which the community service can be done.
Secondly, what makes you think contributing to the community is 'worthless'. Ever built a house for habitat, participate in Big Bros or Big Sisters. There is no value that can be put on that type of service. Unless of course the only value in your life is in your wallet.
Think about the television commercial where I think the first guy is trying to open a dore and someone comes by and gets it for him because his hands are full, this continues through a line of people. Each person extending the kindness shown to them to the next. Random acts, the last one in line being the first... think about it
Why not pay it back over X number of years. Looked at the default rate on student loans lately?.. yep something for nothing.
it says it on the website jackass.
Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year. They will develop national guidelines for service- learning and will give schools better tools both to develop programs and to document student experience.
the service ithat is given will be nowhere near the $40 dollars an hour after taxes especially when you consider the costs of administering and supervising and training and insuring the servants.
If it were worth the money why not take the more direct and effective method. Raise taxes by the amount needed to do the work and then do the work. The reason is that society on the whole does not value the work enough to fund it.
And we haven't even begun to discuss who gets to define what services are worthy of qualifying.
In the 70s society didn't value alternative energy enough to fund it.
Glad we let that go by...
Funny I just looked ast the website when you posted that to be sure I didn't miss anything. I see nothing WROMG with having kids do community service. As I said, look at any college app... they are looking for those who do community service.
I guess my stand is different that yours. Raise taxes on what? looked at the latest unemployment numbers? Maybe the rich? Not again.... no value? Being exposed to different people has no value? Gettng a sense of purpose has no value? Expose kids to people of different socio-economic levels.. .no value?
My son voluteers at the local homeless shelter one day a month and NOT because it is required.
BTW I prefer donkey to jackass and it is NOT stated on the site that it is arequorement of graduating from high school. What the actualy plan says is in order to qualify for college tuition help.
Good for him. However, the point some of us are trying to make is that it SHOULDN'T be required. Mandatory Volunteerism = Oxymoron.
OK fed up.. .this is what I believe. America is one of the only countries were education is free to all. That education is funded in large part by our federal tax dollars. That being said, if community service is a requirement and you disagree, you can always put your kids in private school. Matter of fact, one of the private schools I was looking at for my son ALSO required community service though they received no federal funding. The point is to produce well rounded people who know compassion.
My property tax dollars pay (in part) for the public schools in my district, and we pay federal taxes as well, therefore my son has the right to attend them.
If I CHOOSE to put my son in a private school that has mandatory community service, then I CHOOSE to agree to those terms (we can't afford it, so it's not an option anyway). However, making it mandatory in a public school gives me no options whatsoever. As long as the community service we already choose to participate in is acceptable, he'd be able to meet the requirements, but what if, like some of the posters suggest, church (or any other faith-based) sponsored activities don't count?
However, it still goes back to the thought that I have the right to raise my child however I see fit. If that means that I raise him to be the most ungrateful, selfish child in the room, that is my right as a parent. However, because I love my son, I will teach him to be a loving, compassionate, caring, giving person. It's my job to produce a well rounded individual, not the school's or the government's.
Fedup: What about mandatory for college prep students. Not all students go to college.
I personally think that if you don't have something specific in mind, take a year or two before you go to college.
Multiply your theory of "your right" to raise a lazy child. Now multiply that by 100,000.
When does sociey take responsibilty for the inability of parents to raise children???
That child becomes a burdensome adult on society, who takes responsibility???
What is the future of a country where 70% is too stupid or lazy to care for themselves and 20% has special needs and only 10% takes care of everyone???
How does that country compete in the world??
The last time I checked, this was still one of the most caring, compassionate countries on the face of the earth. Hmmm...must be all those lazy children we raised, out building houses, going on medical missions, running soup kitchens, cleaning up after hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, fires, etc., volunteering in schools, handing out clothing in shantytowns in Mexico, making bag lunches for the homeless...
I grant you that not everyone raises their children to be loving and compassionate. It's still not the job of the government to force people to raise their children according to a governmental program of "social responsibility". There will always be lazy parents; there will always be kids who dislike the idea of service; there will always be people who choose not to take responsibility for their lives. Is it really the role of the government to take over ALL parents' rights, for the sake of a few bad apples?
Again I agree. Maybe the time and effort would be better spent on making gang association illegal, and then building rehabilitation programs for all the gang members as we get them off the streets. My children are doing just fine. A mandatory program like this just puts an extra burden on those of us that are already trying to do it right. The ones that need it won't involve themselves to begin with. No change.
Fedup:
I am obviously not talking about those who already volunteer. They were obviously encouraged through good parenting, after school activities, and yes church to give back to the world.
But there are those who do not get the opportunity to serve. There are those who become part of societies waste.
And again we are not talking about a lot of time.
As far as High School, it becomes part of the learning curriculum
And College it is only mandatory as long as you want $4,000.
The resources represented by these state sponsered "volunteer" programs will be taken out of the private economy, thus weakening it more, causing more companies to fail, thereby taking more jobs out of the economy, thereby causing the need for more government programs, probably "volunteer" oportunities supported by the government, until yes, we are enslaved, because all our needs a are met by the government and there will be no room for individual initiative. We will all just be cogs in the wheel.
Remember, a large part of Ayn Rand's morality comes from the practice of free market capitalism.
"America is one of the only countries were education is free to all. "
Really? So where are my property taxes going? Funny, they told me they were going to fund my schools. So now I have to pay high property taxes AND my kid has to work to pay it off? Interesting.
either way, I would rather teach my child about community service myself. I'm getting a little tired of schools poking their noses into everything. The latest atrocity from schools is looking at what kids are bringing for lunch and admonishing parents. Soon they'll be tucking our kids into bed at night for us.
Its volutary just like it has always been... Some people need to read the actual article not what is posted as I show above. No one wants it mandantory even though the benefits from such service could go a long way to betterment in this country.
http://jdmiller82.newsvine.com/_news/2008/11/06/2082920-what-obamas-new-website-reveals
a similar article seeded already discusses that the site is still in the beginning stages, but honestly, i don't think that community service is such a bad idea.....
One of the better ideas I have seen from anyone. As a senior I will participate.
In this country we take everything for granted is about time we get our butts out there and do something for this country. Yes we Can!
We have become a nation that thinks things should be given to us. We take our freedoms for granted. I am willing to do my part! I work in a public school! But I spend a lot of time, as does my husband, with other peoples kids. Some of these kids' parents don't even come to watch them play in a game. Some of these kids don't even know whether they are going to have a hot meal when they go home at night.
To show a child some support, no matter how small, is something that they will appreciate down the line.
Not just spending time with kids. Anyone spend time in a veterns hospital??? Nursing home??? Animal Shelter????
How about cleaning up neighborhoods?
Local Soup kitchen??
There is a world of posibilities.
To one and all - teaching work ethics is a fine thing! We all need to do something to make our time on earth worthwhile. When you get old and look back on your life, what will you see that YOU have done to benefit someone else besides yourself? It doesn't even have to be a big deal. Small things count too. We are all human beings, young and old, and alive. Just start with looking around and find anything at all that will help someone else and you are beginning to help yourself. GG
Plant a community garden. Teach children (and anyone else who wants to learn) the valuable experience of growing their own food. It makes you appreciate farmers and agricultural workers. A lot. And fresh tomatoes......mmmmmmm!
"In this country we take everything for granted is about time we get our butts out there and do something for this country. Yes we Can!"
So true! I watch the next generation (my daughter included) seemingly take the amazing privilege of living in this nation for granted. The benefits that we all receive by virtue of our luck of the draw in simply having been born here are too numerous to count.
At this point in time, Obama has activated a long dormant enthusiasm that I have not seen since the Sixties. I only hope that he can channel it into constructive paths, maintain it, and inspire the new generations fo Americans to work to improve this great nation.
All I know is I am sick to death of seeing privileged and the kids from my neighborhood talk about how bored they are and there is nothing to do and no one will give them a job and me me me me me me me me.
This is an idea that gets them out of that habit. It can give them direction.
Hell, I volunteered at the Girls Club one year and got the Margaret Nobel Award. I still remember that with pride.
We are talking about an hour a day, a few weekends, or a couple weeks out of your summer.
How is this a heart-ship?
I find all these comments commendable. I have problems with the mandatory part. Its a very slippery slope. Is my child going to be loaded on a bus at school and supervised by an unscreened volunteer while she volunteers at an abortion clinic. Yes this may be an extreme example. I just look at the times we live in and read everyday about government programs like DHS where children are being mentally, sexually and physically abused by adult "volunteers" while the government which instituted these programs can't or won't pay for decent screening or salaries for the overseers to do their jobs. My children are well guided by me. Go out and try to mandate the children in gangs and their parents. Leave my well raised children alone. I'm just sayin...slippery slope.
While it no longer says "required", I still don't think I would have a problem with it. I see it as another credit requirement for promotion to the next grade. Call it a required citizenship class..right along with english and math.
But I do see the need to make sure there is a way to excuse the requirement if it is discovered that nothing can truly be found or due to students other obligations.
My children attended a catholic high school they were required to have 24-30 hrs of volunter work for every year og high school to graduate. In public school when I suggested it instead of saturday detention, I was told they could not "require it". Obviously the mandatory part is a problem and children and young adults should not be asked to participate in areas that conflict with their moral ethics.(ie Planned parenthood) neither should participation in political activities be considered service (specially ACORN).
"I know of no better definition for the corporations raping the economy while rewarding of workers was virtually non-existent. If stagnant wages don't convince you, just ask migrant workers."
The corportations are being raped by America. Also, migrant workers risk their lives coming to America, and are at risk of being deported while working here, but they still come. The opposite is true.
Solution: get rid of the minimum wage, open the borders, and free up the businesses so the competant can be rewarded.
LOL ok now I see your mindset. Immigrant workers risk their lives to get here and work for less than any American can exist on.
In addition remove the minimum age work requirement so we can get those 7 year olds into the sweat shops. The competent? I don't know any American who does not WANT to work! The problem is NO person is going to PAY to work and without a minimum wage that is what you are proposing. Heck half the time the minimum wage results in paying to work when you take into consideration the expense of childcare for families.
Give it a break... You ARE espousing a new type of slavery! Your proposals would set this country back 200 years.
when will people learn that the solution to one problem is just the beginning of another problem.
dropping the minimum wage will only cause a shift in value, which will then result in hoarding of money, a drop in income for many, and bring about a even bigger shift in class divisions, which in time will turn cause capitalistic motives into a economic feudalism. "freeing" up businesses will only lead to problems of generally lower economic productivity as the workforce is becomes burdened with problems of sustainability, health, and security. the borders, well... i'll leave that for someone else to argue.
the biggest problem is not that corporations are getting "raped", or that individuals are getting "raped". the biggest problem is that capitalism, like every other -ism, is easily exploited by those seeking power, and its necessary to protect everyone equally through checks & balances. until that sweet spot of capital growth is found, individuals and businesses are going to reap rewards and feel big pains.
Umm.....
This greedy Reagonic Me society has done nothing to make this country greater. 75% graduation rate, declining mortality rates, rising infant deaths rates, suicide rates increasing, the list goes on and on.
yeah hows that lack of minimum wage doing in mexico?
you do know walmart doesnt pay it's badg boys a dime in mexico..they survive liek street people.. by begging.. walmarts excuse they are following the law and no company pays the bag boys"
this is what we will have without min wage
see a company will cut your wages to compete with the competition and if you dont liek it you can quit..and eventually the excuse can be here "well no one else pays them either)
all markets started without regualtion the new deal is one of the regulations that saved this country from the great depression and why we have done so well until now.
but lets visit walmart and free amrkets again.. you know wlamart was just busted by the mexican supreme court for paying it's store workers with "walmart bucks". This "money" could only be used in store and for products at "pre discount" prices.. this is what peopel like AynRand want to return to.. the good old days of hte robber barons, where you were basically in indentured servant to your corporation.
the rest of us have moved past the robber barons and no we dont want a bunch of mini nation states controled by the walmarts of the country.
On behalf of all people who support free markets: please, don't be on our side.
Seriously, in light of the bailout how can anyone possibly maintain that big business and big government are at odds with each other? While there are occasional polite disagreements between the plutocratic and bureaucratic wings of the ruling class, there is no fundamental conflict.
Unfortunately, for every liberal drone that thinks it will be awesome when Obama makes the trains run on time, there is some dip@!$%# Randroid who is there to shed a tear for the poor oppressed corporations. *sigh*
....Since my daughter has attended Catholic schools all her life and is a junior now at a Catholic H.S. in Florida...................Service Hours are nothing new. In elementary school she had to complete 20 per year........and now in high school 40 if she completes it during the summer or 30 during the school year.
Parents also are required to earn service hours.
If you make it part of the package from day 1......it becomes normal.
This instills work ethic, pride in accomplishment, pride in fulfilling something for someone else as well as yourself, community outreach.
Every year my daughter's high school brings in over 100,000 can goods for a food bank here in town. It becomes a community wide effort. It has instilled a competition between our school and our sister school in another town as well as another state........between 3 schools 500,000 items for the needy
If 3 groups can do this in a 2 week period. IMAGINE.....just imagine........what an entire global effort can accomplish.
It's not totalitarian it's HUMAN...it's COMMUNITY.
Get over yourselves.....if you're too damn lazy and selfish to help then fine.....at least be real about it and admit you're just lazy...but don't go around calling giving back to your community somthing evil and wrong.
It's great...it's what we've been needing from our leaders!
GGM:
Good to see you,
I agree whole heartily. I do not get this. I would expect out of Republicans a desire to get people busy helping themselves. Instead I see a need to call this Totalitarian or Communistic.
We finally have a leader who is going to light a fire under our a$$es.
This last one took our country to war and then told everyone to lay back and shop (on the credit card system).
For the life of me I just don't understand what it is these people want.
they dont want him to do well is what they want
and they will complain even if he does.
and before someone says "like bush" bush once had a 90% rating.. he had our support.. yall squandered that.
JCAtom - I hope Barak Obama stirs in us the notion of what Kennedy said during his innauguaral - Ask not what your country can do for you....ask what you can do for your country.
DragonWoman good to see you too :) I do not understand either considering one of their tenets is for self-reliance.
So what do they do? They begin picking apart Barak Obama not 48 hours into his transition. They meet 'secretely' in the Shennendoah Valley in Virginia to start their plan of attack on regaining power.
It's all about power.
They are not going to be happy until we are nothing but some theocracy.
And people worry that Obama is this secret Muslim and we're going to end up worshiping at Mosques instead of churches and temples.
I dont get it either.
I di'nt squander nut'in......I didn't vote for the idiot.
;)
Neither did I!!!!
=}
Go Obama!
Already complaining?? Holy cow, this is just a possibility, nothing set in stone, just some pro active president elect ideas being thrown at us, the slavery comments along with the preemptive @!$%#ing about how hard our kids already work, its not fair, all of you listen here "It is past your bedtimes, get your bottles and get into bed" I expect my children to have an active interest in their community, in a society were we have slowly retreated into our small comfort zone for fear that some one may find out what they have and try to take it away or worse yet they may expect me to....gulp..share.
All the whining about the government doing this, taking that or giving that (to the wrong people, of course) blame the Republicans, blame the Dems, the gays, the minority the majority, WHATEVER, blame, blame accuse, all the while doing absolutely zip to do something other then complain about it. How dare anyone ask someone to work for what they want?? The audacity!
Put down the game-boys, cut back on one of 3 sports and 7 extracurricular activities and help your fellow man, be a human being offering assistance to another human being and for that you will get money for higher education. In addition to some strenght of character.
Those families whose children's college education is secured, be it loans or liquid wealth then this will reduce those loans or allow a small amount to remain in your accounts.
For those who have no desire to continue this will be an incentive, you worked for it, might as well give it a shot. Involvement in the community for the time span required will work wonders, ambition, final pay off or payback, if you will. How about good -ole "I earned it, I am sure as hell not going to throw it away."
Those whose families cannot even consider the option will have children involved in a positive environment, helping others while working toward the freedom, the possibilities higher education offers. To all of you extremists who enjoy living in fear almost as much as planting it in others...ugh, it is JUST A POSSIBILITY REMEMBER!!
As #4.7 so hysterically comments "adult volunteers molesting our children...."well raised children" Really??? So not only is the OPTION(went as far as detailing income, after volunteer? among others) going to expose our children to the overwhelming number of adults who as you state are "volunteers" whose sole purpose is to disguise themselves as a volunteer just to have unlimited access to as many children as desired. WOW! Paranoid much...who would have imagined....all along it has been the volunteers(insert sarcasm if you havent already) such genius?. I am sure keeping your children away from those community volunteers and their baby loving ways, is part of why YOU believe your children are well guided?
Moving on. The (sane and realistic) truth of the matter is latter occurs in our country under the most well though out, parent supplied circumstances to suggest that our children because they are forced to get off their lazy behinds (read the article about childhood obesity, a problem of epidemic proportions if you thought otherwise) and be a positive contributor toward their own future success, stop making excuses and get involved with your fellow human, helping others and compassion is the key to change in every community, invest in your fellow man.....REALLY I SWEAR IT DOESN'T HURT ONE BIT!!!
BTW, I am the mother of 3 who will go to collage with help from this program or not, if not they are still expected to get involved, does wonders in the appreciation dept. Since my oldest voluntered at a soup kitchen, I have not heard one whine..."Mom, don't we have anything GOOD to eat."
A suggestion, a maybe, a possible option...HELLO people it is something, Obama's seat in the White house isnt even warm yet and he is already thinking up ways to make the change we all want. United communities, children with a sense of hope and compasion, all tied up neatly with money you dont have to pay back with interest over 30 years. What the hell is the problem??
Lets not forget Yes We Can! It wasn't only about the election, its about the future, We Can and Must help move this country forward.
This slogan "Yes We Can" or as it was originally stated by Cesar Chavez "Si Si Puede" isn't new........but it now has a new vision based on Kennedy's "New Frontier"
No one can dig us out of the trench we're in but us. Ever task needs a project manager and that is Barak Obama.......we are the ones who have to do the work from the inside out so that his ideas and his plans can start working from the bottom up.
United we stand....divided we fall.
If we aren't careful the long slippery fall we've already begun wont stop until we hit bottom and that frankly should scare the hell out of us than a little hard work and sacrifice.
God helps those who help themselves.
Fine with me.
I read this article and thought to myself it seemed like not a big deal, but then I read the comments, and was floored.
We have children, 4 to be exact, they now range in age from 13-23. They all have had community service hours on their high school diploma. Second son had nearly 300, current senior daughter has close to 200. (and it only counts from 10th grade-12th) current 8th grade daughter has done many, many hours.
This weekend, her girl scout troop is going up to work all weekend, fixing up the girl scout camp before the younger girls use it in the spring. They will redo the hiking trails etc. She has also worked with younger kids in a performing arts school, helping them with stage work during a play, costuming, etc, just because she likes that sort of thing (on her own, not with any group or scout troop).
Oldest son was in culinary group in high school that volunteered at the local "soup kitchen". Other son volunteered with a group that did a "Breakfast with Santa" for families that had small children and needed help for the holidays, the teens did everything from play games with the kids, to deliever the food, presents and trees to the houses.
These are just things they did, they got no "reward" etc.. they just learned it as a natural part of life. All of them, in Kindergarden, helped maintain a "neighborhood" garden, where once a week, they walked to the garden, a block from school, and did some sort of work, from planting to weeding, their reward was a "feast" from the things they grew. Just to learn how food grows etc.
Maybe some of it was me, as I have volunteered many places, ever since they can remember. I do not see it as a bad thing.
Last evening, my senior daughter was talking about Americorps, she wants to find out more about it. I just don't see it as a bad thing. I really didn't expect people to see it as a bad in any way.
I'm kind of amazed by that too.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Some people get offended when they hear that. I know it offends me! How DARE someone tell me to donate some of my precious valuable time for others! ME ME ME!
Exposing young people to the misfortunate and possibly making them more tolerant in the process would be aweful for our country.
Let alone pulling them away from facebook and creating more human interaction, oh god forbid.
Agreed. How could giving back to the people around you be bad?
Unfortunately Arizonan I have not seen much of that where I live, I commend you for your good parenting.
Where I live, I see kid all over the street sometimes until after 10 at night (little ones), they are in young gangs. Breaking windows and destroying property.
Some of the ones against this idea would say just put their butts in jail or Juvenal Hall.
What a waste.
What a waste of human life. Just to be tossed away without a chance for change. This could be it.
Before Obama was elected the big fear was that he was going to hand out reparations. Just money for nothing. Now I hear (see) folks against community service.
What the hell???
Arizonian,
Your the parent, and if you happy with your children doing community work for the school that's fine.
But to make it mandatory or Demanded is going to far. We give enough to our country paying taxes, military, etc.. So it should be up to the parent and it should be on a volunteer basis
Greg : You said the following
What makes you think that this is MANDATORY. If you can afford to send your kids to school without intervention there is not requirement. However, if you are asking for government help to provide more opportunity for your children, what is your issue.
I told my son from day ONE that mom will NOT be paying for college. He has always understood that he would need to work in order to get there. It is what made me the person that I am. I am actually grateful that this proposal guarantees him a WAY to work and EARN his way through college. It is not a right, it is a privilege.
As far as being a REQUIREMENT when is the last time you looked at a college app? One field you cannot miss is where they ask about your community service. Colleges are looking for people who look beyond themselves. As a matter of fact. my son brught it up before he even entered high school asking me what type of community service he should do for his college app.
The question is, even WITHOUT, Obama would your kid be denied acceptance without community service on their colleg resume? Very possibly depending on the pool.
Republicans are very very good at one thing: hate.
They hate Barack Obama and will do everything they can to impede him, hurt him, stop him. By any means necessary. And I do mean that exactly the ominous way it sounds.
Yeah, I'm feelin' so much love from the Dems.
I'll put my volunteer service record up against anyone else's on this post, by the way. Compassion isn't a left-wing secret.
Kim, the more I thought about your post, the more frustrated I became.
To lump almost half the population into a group, say they're a bunch of haters, and that we are plotting to assassinate PE Obama is probably the most hateful thing I've heard out of anyone's mouth in a very long time.
People have criticized my screen name in the last week, saying it's divisive. However, posts like yours are exactly why I chose it.
To assume that anyone who doesn't belong to your political party is of a certain mindset is bigoted, divisive, hateful, racist and just downright mean. Why do you think that YOU have the right to point the finger at half the population and hurl hateful, insulting accusations? Why is it okay for YOU to be judgemental and hateful, while accusing us of being the same?
Shame on you, Kim.
fedupwithliberals:
I didn't see the rest of Kim's post so I am not sure what she said, but as to your screen name, I think she might have a point. I think your screen name does lend itself to "the other side" being predisposed to being antagonistic before anyone hears what you are actually trying to say.
For the rest of your post, I agree, but it is not confined to liberals. You are also completely right that it is inappropriate to take the extremist views of some and assume it applies to all. There is far too much hateful nonsense going both ways. It IS NOT O.K. for one side to be judgemental and hateful while accusing the other of beign the same.
I like to move around to a lot of different Blog sites, including some very conservative ones, to get a feel for the orientation/topics of choice from other viewpoints. I haven't heard a lot of assassination talk(that would probably generate some visits from the Secret Service at this point), but I HAVE personally seen a lot of activity on how to get Obama impeached even before he gets into office, along with a lot of perpetuation of very sick character assassination on things that have already been proven to be fallacies or for which there are zero grounds for making the accusations.
We ALL must be very careful about what we say in order to respect the right for others to have valid viewpoints. We need to start policing ourselves, our entire blogs, and the extremists on our side of the house. We must not get so wrapped up in it that we demonize the entirety of the other side or assume that a few speak for all. We can't shut down all the nonsense in that way, but if we set a high standard, the B.S. will stand out and we can either ignore it or delete it and eventually all will get the hint. If we do that, I think we all can learn a lot from each other.
If I read one more derange moron ragging on the republicans because of this or that i will scream. First Republicans are not evil, they are not the devil they are your neighbors, your baker, your cashier at the supermarket. They are people like everybody else. Trust me I have met plenty of miserable liberals in my lifetime. Intolerant bigots of the left that believe only they have a right to br righteus. They are better that others and in their hubris become a parody of that which they hate. Good and bad people exist in both sides and as long as you spout the "those republicans" line nothing will get better, nothing will get done.
Brammy,
in your comment 10.8, it's insane to make it mandatory to do community service. There are enough free loaders receiving government assistance sitting on there butts and also prisoners. Let them do the service. This will make the students understand that if they don't succeed they could be out there.
By the way I put my daughter through college, and she is very successful. By bringing kids into this world, I feel it's a parents duty to help get them started. There are no excuses..
I would just like to interject in this discussion with an important reminder.
To everyone who avows, like AynRand, that government is supposed to "leave us alone" or "get out of our way", could you please take a hard, honest look at how much you really depend on government in your daily life? I mean it. You can still come on the board and puff up your chest while pretending to be a Hemingway conservative, but secretly make a list of all the necessities government provides for you on a day-to-day basis.
-While I agree with Rugged individualism in principal, it really has become an anachronism. We aren't a society of squatters out on the frontier anymore. Our lives are too interconnected and interdependent for real, honest individualism to be a necessity, but they are just disparate enough to use it as a rallying cry people who want to dupe others into thinking any and all government regulation is an inherently bad thing. Its interesting how neo-cons who profess to want small government squeal when issues like government service come up, but are strangely silent when issues surrounding government impingement on privacy rights come up.
Brian, you hit the nail on the head.
People who think like AynRand have no problem feeding off the public school system, will cash that pretty little social security check when they're eligible and will wholeheartedly take the medicare when they're old and decrepit. Lets not mention how angry they get if our government forgets to pick up their trash and doesn't fix our roads and bridges...How dare our government provide these necessities to its citizens. Such socialists...
Government is good when you need something, but God forbid we are asked to give something back...
this is as basic as where you get your water, your electric, who picks up your trash, who answers your emergency calls, who protects your neighborhood from crime, who puts out your burning house. We ALL rely on the government to an extent. Giving back is morally right, it teaches children to do the right thing; and what is it going to hurt... whose time is that precious that they can not give a little bit to someone else.
Try driving down a rickety street when Big Gov is out of your life.
Want to drive over a bridge after a few years of no Government. Or maybe we should privatize it like Bush has. That has done wonders for some areas.
Well I guess wwe could always set him/her up with an armory and the next time this country is attacked out em on the next plane over. However, I fear his solution would require the new 'slaves' to have that honor.
Don't like "requirements" on time and labor.
Bad precedent.
It's just a simple matter of freedom.
Me too.
Juno, just curious - but what does coming together as a nation mean to you?
I get the sense from a lot of conservative voices on here that we should be a nation of individuals striving to achieve our own definition of happiness. Now that doesn't sound all that bad - especially to those who already have a leg up, but I am wondering when do we unite? When are we one nation?
For instance, complete the sentence - "I am only looking out for numero uno except in the case of ________________________________.
12.2 You addressed Juno, but if I may, I think we should all contribute to society on a volunteer basis. Make the opportunities available, but don't force the service. Now, there are exceptions to this rule. I do believe in the draft in the time of national emergency in order to form an army. There are things the government must require for the sake of the nation. Public service is not one of them. It becomes dangerously akin to trying to make us all look the same, act the same and think the same. I'm sure that is not your intention. Individual rights is a good thing for the country. In our freedom we are inspired to serve our country in ways a government wonk making up a list of required tasks could never imagine. So, get off the high horse and stop the labeling and chiding. We all want a better country.
How is it being forced? don't want to do it? pay for your own education that simple.
I don't see any link in the article between community service and a scholarship. It just looks like a blanket requirement. Help me here.
The confusion is that there seem to be two different plans involving community service (if they overlap, please correct me.) The article points to a plan requiring community service from students, much like many private schools currently enforce. Obama outlined a separate (I think) plan during the race in which college students would get $4000 a year toward college in exchange for some kind of (unspecified at the time) community service.
Thanks. I maintain my position. : )
Brian,
We are one nation, not a herd of cattle, I have to agree 100% with savannah 12.3.. We all or lets say the majority of us pay taxes to keep our country running and that is supposedly the job of the politicians, and while they do there job, we as citizens do what ever we feel like doing and not being obligated criminals to do community service or any other service some politicians wants to take credit for.
Savannah: There isn't one. I guess this is one of those "read between the lines" deals. I believe it is being pitched by posters as such simply because of the Obama college tax credit tied to community service, and the fact that AmeriCorps does offer tuition assistance to those who complete service thru them. So basically, assumption. You know what the saying is about assume don't you? So I will assume nothing, and take it as presented.
We all want a better country.
Agreed. I am responding specifically to the ultra-individualism being promoted by a lot of conservative posters.
As much as you fear a collective national mind, I fear a fragmented individualistic society. I would list the climate crisis, financial crisis, and global poverty as results of a mind set that believes cause and effect are only relevant to a certain individuals concerns or the concerns of an individual corporation - ignoring it's larger implications or dismissing them as not relevant.
I don't consider helping the impoverished or bettering education opportunities in low-income nieghborhoods through community service to be Orwellian.
I also understand the difference between encouraging and mandating. It is very significant.
Ahhh, so at the root of things, we agree. I think the Peace Corps is great. Volunteerism is powerful and effective. Once again it comes down to "encouraging" or "mandating". Encourage YES - Mandate NO
Brian: Agreed
We mandate kids to go to school in the first place. Do you feel parents should have the right not to send their kids to school at all.
We mandate sending kids to school because we no the importance of having an educated society. We should also want them to learn the importance of serving and hard work. I see nothing wrong with this as a mandate.
Read Orwell?
4real: I believe in the right to home school in a responsible way. I can teach my children the importance of service and hardwork without the government telling me to.
Are you really willing to just hand over your children with no questions asked? If the children do not fulfill the requirement then what? You pay a fine? Take your kids away? Kick the kid out of school? Ask some questions without jumping on board for anything that requires something without you knowing exactly what!
Last I checked, education and community service were hardly what Orwell was warning against.
I could also say wait to see what the program looks like fleshed out before assuming the worst based on the basic idea.
Minimize the danger all you want, but it's the beginning of a very ugly end.
The PATRIOT act is Orwellian. Circumventing FISA is Orwellian. A President that alters democratically passed law through signing statements is Orwellian. Increasing conglomeration of media is Orwellian.
Community service is not.
Okay, I've been observing for awhile here and enjoying reading your great posts. I'm going out of a limb here, friends. I agree with Obama on this one -- IF I understand it correctly. Consider:
Most public and private high schools in our area (NC) already require 30 hours of public service for graduation. All colleges look for it and have for years now. This would be an increased requirement -- big deal. As long as it's overseen as a part of curriculum, as it is now, I think it's a good thing for our young people to have to contribute to their country instead of just taking. And, there's a bit of a payoff in it for them now.
Other countries, such as democratic Israel require military service of their citizenry.
I was one who agreed with Phil Gramm when he said we had become a nation of whiners. Too many just ask what their country can do for them. This idea will assure children that they are able to and have a responsibility to contribute to their country.
I do not support child labor, and I don't believe Obama does either. But, everyone has something to offer!
Appropriate safeguards must be put in place including allowing for credit for those who volunteer under the auspices of their place of worship, etc. But, on the surface, I think this is a good idea.
I agree.. I would add compulsary service. Can we agree to disagree on that?
Yes Ellie, I see your point. I guess I distrust government a wee much. Safeguards would be a good thing. I'm really not trying to be difficult, maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't like stuff like this cause it's many times a good idea and good intentions that get twisted and misused. People resent the "Christian Right" for moralizing and potificating and then they turn around and do the same thing.
Oh, I would add a home school provision, too. Most home schoolers are community service "machines". The object would not be to punish those who are already participating in their communities in this way.
Savannah, good point. I see this as perhaps a victory for our conservative principles, though. That said, vigilance, vigilance....
This...I could definately do. I mean, the idea of community service isn't bad--but from the sounds of this website, it appears to be mandatory with no benefit whatsoever, which makes me think, "We've had at least a decade of an administration that did nothing for the people, can't you at least give us something in return before you require us to do work?"
How exactly does community service make us look, act, and think the same?
are yall against the isreali requirement, that all of it's citizens serve in the military, with a threat of jail if you refuse?
/www.goerie.com/graduates/2002/community_service_hours_can_tr.html"where yall ouraged at bush's plan that sounded exactly like this one? scholaship money for community serivce?
where yall upset at reagans points of light foundation that gives out scholarships for community service?
and you do know that creating an attitude that community service is good is a great way to reduce the cost of government?
you also know that Buhs's dad the other former president bush created a scholaship specifically for peopel who do community service?
Crystal,
I didnt say that we mandate going to public school. They mandate a child has to be educated. I agree we are having a lot of discussions about his ideal without knowing details. I think this will only apply to kids in public school, it would be harder to enforce otherwise.
For those who post this is the start of some Orwellian 1984, I agree with 12.18 we have had more trangression to our individual rights in the last 8 years that scare me far worse then kids doing some community service
Personally i think of it as adding one more "R" to the cirriculum: Reading Writing Arethmatic, and coming soon Responsibility.
OK, people, "1984," a work by George Orwell, was FICTION. It was a made-up story. You guys need to get a grip and stop acting like he wrote a textbook or something.
We always fear the unknown, don't we.
Cancer1G:
I don't know... And that scares me..
As for made up stories being accepted as fact ... Do you have the same problem with the Bible or any other religious text?
What about Obama's Blueprint for Change, or any campaign literature?
Then there's most of the "news" content of the mainstream media...
We all behave according to popular myth and accepted cultural narratives -- the Neocons have a single skill, and that is manipulating these popular myths, and look at the damage that has done to us all. (This is Neocon PNAC developer Philip Zelikow's speciality.)
It is a mistake to underestimate the value and impact of "fictional" works on a population's actual conduct.
Juno, you said the following:
What is the issue requiring time for value.. Its the way you make your paycheck. Anything else and the system would not survive. You would have those that decided they only wanted to do one hour and those that would work tirelessly because they found some niche that would feel comfortable but receive the same benefit?
Basically it is not an hourly requirement. If you want the 4 Grand you work the required hours, if not find another way to pay for your education.
REMEMBER this program is designed to help the US infrastructure. Kinda like the 'Give Something Back' program that has been initiated in some communities.
The problem is that this so-called plan calls for mandatory service requirements for Junior High students, not just $4K for college students. If I choose to work, I accept that I must be at work for so many hours to get so much pay. What in the world are we doing mandating community service for 12 year olds? It's not the same thing.
Actually the total time requirement is for the college asistance. I guess I just dont get it. What is the issue?
For me, for my son to see what happens when life fai;s you it seems that it would cause him to be less likely to allow himself to fail.
Sorry, Brammy, I don't see where you got the "total time requirement" thing from that website. It doesn't say it anywhere I looked.
And my 3 1/2 year old son has already had a taste of community service, and will continue to be involved, but not because of some government mandate. It's out of love for our fellow man. That's what's missing in forcing people into community service.
That was what I got from the actual plan during the campaign.
So lets say it IS a requirement. I posted above that America has the greatest free education system in the world. Investigating private schools for my son, I know some also require community service.
I really wish people would stop looking at this as a matter of control and possibly a system in order to expose kids to different aspects of life and produce well-rounded individuals
That being said everyone is entitled to their opinions. I see no problem with it personally mandated or not. However I am SURE that everything the candidate proposes will not come to fruition.
I have always gotten 10x more 'out' of a volunteer or community service opportunity than I 'gave'. I imagine the young people who participate in this program, whatever its final incarnation will be, will find that to be true, too.
Kim, again no one is saying volunteering is not a good thing. When it's mandatory, however, it ceases to be volunteer.
As someone who has done a lot of volunteer work, I realize the value both to the person/organization I'm helping, and more often than not, to myself.
That doesn't negate the fact that I don't want the government interfering in my life any more than they already do.
I served 24 year in the United States Navy, 8 active and the rest in the Reserves, during which time I was employed as a Police Officer in the community I happened to be living in. Additional community service was completed as a police officer in between my enlistments. Let's see PE Obama's community service against mine or anyone elses that has a similar record of real Community service. And Im not talking about being a community organizer, that's a load. I used to travel to South Chicago from Great Lakes on the train and then by bus, not one person was out working in that part of town, all the while I was getting $69 per 2 weeks for Navy Pay! Big plans, little trun-out we who served should should be re-imbursed retro-actively from day one!
sour grapes much
Could it be that there were no Jobs in that area. Could it be that at the same time you were stepping onto your bus in the morning, they were getting onto their to head to the OTHER side of town. With you time period that is more than likely true.
Unless you knocked on every door in that community everyday, how can you make that assumption. Ever heard of the night shift.
Of course just like the majority of those here you can only see things through your narrow window of experience and being a bitter beat cop is not community service.
BTW 24 (1984)years ago was at the height of the Reganomics meltdown. There were no jobs. As a recently seperated Vet at that time myself, I know. I was laid off from my company and job opps were few and far between. Look at what you are talking about and what timeframe.
BTW John, in times of economic turmoil, where jobs are concerned, those vwho have the least are usually the first to go. At least that was the case in 84. now companies have started cutting some of the fat at the top.
Let’s all forget for the moment that most, if not all of us, are basically a little bit fearful (read that paranoid) where the government is concerned. With all that has happened in this country over the years it’s more than to be expected. But let’s also not forget whose country this is. It’s not the government’s except for the individuals within it. It doesn’t belong to any particular administration or group. This is our country and just as with our own house, it is our responsibility to take care of it and those within.
Most of you feel that the homeless guy you saw on the street or the teenager in handcuffs are not your problem, not your responsibility. If your neighbor looses his or her job it’s not your concern. Many people in this country, unfortunately, have transcended the “me first” mentality to become the “me only” isolationists. Equally sad is the fact that many of these claim to be Christians following an ideology that teaches against just such attitudes.
We want this country to get better for ourselves and our children, but how many are willing to make it happen. It won’t happen by sitting at your computer or in your favorite bar complaining about how the government isn’t doing enough while at the same time calling it government interference if they attempt to act at all. Volunteerism is not a new concept by any means. It predates this county, it predates western civilization. In the Christian belief it’s being “my brother’s keeper”. Other belief systems have their own forms of the same. It’s the concept of each individual taking charge of not only their own place in this world but in making this world a little better than they found it.
Am I for a wider involvement in community service through various organizations, in a word, yes. In a more complete explanation, I have spent the last 25 years involved in the welfare of the community including founding and incorporating a non-profit organization helping at-risk youth and an organization called Advocacy Ink generating artwork and media for pro-active organizations that can’t afford the media houses. I have worked with the homeless and the needy. And I have been blessed by every moment of it. Not through payment – there hasn’t been any and I usually paid for it out of my pocket. Not through any ego boost. It was in the interaction and learning these other peoples stories, their experiences, being connected to something bigger than myself.
So, you’re right. It’s not your job or your responsibility. It’s an opportunity to connect with the bigger picture. It’s your opportunity to help make this world a better, safer place. The Obama Campaign used the slogan “yes we can”, let’s make ours “yes we will”.
Is it my responsibilty to keep my idiot neighbor off drugs, no! Is it for me to keep his five dogs from being run over, no! His 4 children, no! But I will report his actions to the authorities.
I am not my brother's keeper, personally, the theme of the proposal is absurd, the lawyers will grab onto the lawsuit train by declaring there are no labor laws to be followed. In the case of helping thy neighbor, to what degree!!
It is not a big deal. My daughter had to do it for school and 4H. She complained but then was happy she did it.
I think Obama is looking at the big picture. Everyone should start caring about other people instead of the current attitude every man for himself and to hell with any one else.
Hell how many lonely old people are thrown into nursing homes or otherwise ignored by their family because they are too busy to be bothered? If kids can benefit from someone spending time with someone like them ESPECIALLY if the kids can get college credit or tuition breaks GO FOR IT.
John how could you have a problem with some kid reading to one of your kids in the hospital or mowing your lawn if you were injured and have no family to help. Helping painting your elderly neighbors house so it doesn't affect YOUR property values. Cleaning up the litter from the park down the street so when you walk your dog or take the kids to play they don't step on litter or glass. Or someone being a Big Brother or Big sister to some kid who needs it.
A little bit of kindness goes a long way. it's all about not being so self centered anymore.
DeMilo
It saddens me to see all these people questioning, or doubting, or opposing helping out in their community. But here is the thing: when a disaster occurs, they will be the first people to holler for help. They will expect for someone to help them. And, speaking for myself, I would help them regardless. But shouldn't that kindness be returned?
I mean the money towards college is great! But isn't the shear desire to help someone, reward enough alone?
My biggest question is this: can we really legislate compassion? Granted, more people may get involved, partially because of what they will receive. I am not against community service; I have done a lot in my lifetime, from volunteering at homeless shelters to building homes and handing out clothing in Mexico, to working at a low-income elementary school, to serving my church in many capacities. My family serves out of a sense of compassion and caring, not financial motivation, but since we do serve, we would be more than willing to get a tax credit if it's offered.
The question is, who decides what is or isn't community service? If I work in my church's nursery once a week for an hour, does that count? If I help my elderly neighbor mow her lawn, does that count? Does it have to be an "organized" event? Who signs off on it? Is the college tax credit only for those right out of high school? What about working adults who can only attend part-time? There are many unanswered questions, so I'm reserving my judgement until I know more.
Absolutely...the devil is in the details.
Unfortunately, we don't have any details yet, which is why I'm a little apprehensive about giving a thumbs up on this plan.
No Fed up we cannot legislate compassion but we can hope from exposure that some is learned. Moreover, even those from the ME generation have to admit that if you expose a child to the consequences of bad choices, homeless shelter, illiteracy and the like, they are less likely to make those choices themselves.
Yeah, would have been nice to know a few more details on this before the announcement... Esp when they've already had to correct themselves from "required hours" to "goal of hours"... I was a bit frustrated when I heard it was a 'required" amount of hours (I am trying to go back to college in January and being required to do 100 hours of community service a year may be near impossible to meet)... now they're even talking about deferment for military service... does that mean service already performed (and will that effectively kill off the GIBILL?) or service after college?
idiotic idea. hopefully it will not pass or be ruled unconstitutional. the beginning of buyer's remorse.
I think it's a great idea. I did a lot of community service in high school and college, I have no problem with it being some sort of requirement, especially if it leads to tuition credit. I'm feeling no buyer's remorse from voting yet.
its great that you did community service. the value of community service is usually more the promotion of the idea that we are all responsible for the world in which we live and that it is a good thing for those of us that have to give to those that don't or to help the community that has fostered our success. forced servitude does not promote that idea.
are you agaisnt isrealis requirement of 2 years in the military.
you do know that chuck hagel (r) suggested the same thing?
i could care less what chuck hagel thinks.
the israeli army requirement is different as irael is a small country that can not rely on volunteers to ensure that the army is of sufficient size.
as demonstrated in the us an all volunteer army is far better than one that drafts its soldiers.
Keep in mind we are not talking about adults being required to do community service. We ALREADY mandate kids learn, Why not make service a lesson we teach. Then as adults if they deciede the never want to help anybody ever again. Fine. But it wont be due to lack of exposure
As part of the classroom education fine. But the actual act of service should be voluntary; otherwise, it ceases to be a service and becomes an obligation.
DC you cant read about responisbilty and service. You have to do it. Thats like taking shop and never touching a saw.
you can be inspired by peoples deeds by reading and hearing about them and seeing their results. people were/are inspired by ghandi and ml king by hearing of their deeds and seeing their results. the same holds true for community service. the end state achieved would be far more desirable by inspiring people to do community service than by obligating them to do some form of work they have no interest in doing.
you can force somebody to learn about chemistry but to get a good chemist you need a person that wants to learn about chemistry.
By that argument should we stop teaching chemistry?
Rhetorical. the answer is no. We dont teach children chemistry with the hopes the become chemist. We teach them chemistry so they gain analytical thinking skills and learn about some basic physical properties of the universe. I dont suggest teaching chemistry to make chemist just like I dont think the goal of having kids do service would be to make them servants.
Keep in mind you keep saying force, but we are talking about children who we are"forcing" to educate themselves for their betterment do you think they would study chemistry if you gave them a choice?
look it is simple you are attempting to force morals on people and have them accept them and live by them. it is not the same as forcing education, it is the same as forcing vegetarianism. if you believe that it is the government's responsibility and duty to force moral values upon its citizenery and ensure that they at least once in their life pay lip service to those morals, then i can understand why you are ok with forcing this upon people.
4real, it's not up to the government to teach compassion, any more than it's their responsibility to teach manners, morals, etc. That is the job of a parent. If I believe it's in my child's best interest to learn that helping others is important, I will (and I do). The government's role in educating my child should be in things like math, chemistry, English, etc.
We complain about our schools falling behind; perhaps if we re-focused on actually educating them in the things they need to succeed in a global market, that wouldn't be the case.
I don't see it as teaching compassion. I see it as earning their keep. If they learn compassion, and some social skills then great. But if they don't then fine, but they've got something to do other than WII and drugs.
That is the job of a parent. If I believe it's in my child's best interest to learn that helping others is important, I will (and I do).
Its not the kids who have great parents that end up robbing people later. I agree that it is a parental job, but the reality is some will never get that from their parents and for those that do, consider it renforcement.
Schools teach morality all the time, My wife teaches Kindergarten they teach kids to share, say excuse me etc. . She tells kid manners are part of being good. When you read a kid "The boy who cried wolf" the story has guess what a moral. She doesnt, however, teach beliefs. Because we tell kids to "be good" doesnt mean we teach this belief comes from God.
We get so caught up on somantics, but I think it is important to check the system so that we dont get caught up in teaching beliefs, but lets no be so dramatic
I'm not being dramatic, I'm being practical. As soon as I finish my teaching degree, I will be there in the trenches with your wife. I understand the importance of teaching children manners; I also understand the importance of teaching them how to read. As a future teacher, I believe my priority is teaching kids the educational basics they need to succeed when they reach the next level of education. Hopefully while I'm doing that, I can teach them manners and common courtesy. That's not the same as forcing them (outside of school, I'm assuming) to perform community service.
Maybe one problem is we are assuming it is going to be after school (may or may not). We dont know til we get more details, But if it is, whats wrong with having an afterschool requirement. When you are a teacher are you going to assign homework? Should parents have the right to tell their kids not to do it?
When you get into the classroom you will hopefully see the same thing my wife sees. It takes much more than what is in the books to get kids to succeed. And it is not enough to say they should be getting this from home.
homework is education. community service is morality.
would going into neighborhoods with high teen pregnancy rates or aids/std rates and distributing condoms qualify as community service? how about going into those neighborhoods and teaching abstinence? how about driving people to planned parenthood? how about standing outside of planned parenthood and trying to convince people not to have an abortion?
how and who gets to decide these things.
Now that's what I'm talkin about.
I give up. I will continue to stand by my thought that it's not the government's job to teach my child compassion, or to compel him to serve his community when he's 12 years old.
I will continue to teach my child that it's important to help others when and where we can. I will continue to believe that I am still the main authority figure in my child's life, and I am responsible for deciding how and where he spends his time outside of school.
When I am a teacher, I will do my job to the best of my ability, that job being to educate children in the academic areas they need to succeed in life. I will, to the best of my ability, try to be a good role model for those students. I have many friends who are teachers; having spent MANY hours talking with them before deciding to finish my degree, I understand the challenges they face with discipline and respect in the classroom.
None of that changes the fact that it's NOT the goverment's role to FORCE anyone to VOLUNTEER.
Agreed. It is not about teaching compassion (not that it would be so bad to do that anyway). Community service is about teaching kids about real life - whether you consider that earning their keep, giving back, or just learning about how other aspects of their community work. The schools have become far too concerned with book knowledge for the sake of passing exams and kids miss out on learning about a huge portion of the world around them.
Success in life is not all about academics. Being a good role model is not enough, relying on parents is not enough. And if we are talking about a couple of hours a week - what is the harm? It seems that the argument against this is based on not wanting government interference in individual lives. The government already interferes, for once it could be in a positive way.
That's the problem in a nutshell. I don't WANT any more government interference in how I choose to raise my child. I teach my child compassion. I teach my child to give back. I expect the schools to be concerned about book knowledge. That's their job. I want my child to be able to read and write proper English, to be able to do basic math, to understand our history, to know how to find Russia on a world map. That's why I send him to school. That's the "what, who, where, when"
It is my responsibility as a parent to teach my child about the "why".
I agree fedup.
standing out side a Planned Parenthood clinic and handing out hate mail and verbally assaulting a human being is not community service nor is just handing out condoms. That is not really helping the community, but promoting one single "loaded" idea. Come on you can do better than that... can't you?.
DW, has anyone on this board actually suggested that protest is a valid form of community service? Or handing out condoms?
Who were you actually talking to??? If you were talking to me, please go back and read some of my posts on this thread describing the volunteering I've done. Then get back to me regarding the "Come on you can do better than that... can't you?" remark.
i never suggested a protest but how about passing them out literatrure on adoption?
how is distributing condoms in areas where there are high teen pregnacy rates and high rates of std's not community service. wouldn't the community be better served with a lower rate of std and teen pregnancy?
it is certainly more beneficial than a community garden or some of the ideas i have seen posted on here.
the point is who gets to decide and why is it government's job to decide?
it is possible for people to do community service right now without any encouragement from the government.
fedup: I was not talking about yours, but DC_123. And since DC now wants to clean it up a bit. here is the post
Community service is not morality. There is education involved.
These are not necessarily moral issues, but educational and networking foundations.
There is a problem (in my humble opinion) out there that no one takes the opportunity to address, because it seems to step on parental toes.
I should volenteer that I am not a parent and if you want to have at me for that...fine.
But I see children as only in your care for 18 years, They then are sprung on society.
Some parents through home school and very strict guide lines maintain overt controls that super-seed safety and move into mind control. God forbid another thought be introduced to their way of thinking. God forbid they be who they are. And I suppose that is also a loaded idea.
Most certainly parents should be made aware of the volunteer curriculum and encouraged to see where their child has chosen to volunteer.
As for college, I suppose that is where your "apron" strings are cut off. Unless of course you continue to control your "child" through a savings accounts or trust fund.
the morality is not involved in what you volunteer to do but in the message that you should volunteer. why would it not be better or as good for a child to work at mcdonalds and donate $100 to the salvation army? why is it not better for a child to take the attiude that god helps those that hepls themselves? why would it not be better for a child to work at mcdonalds so that they can save for their college education? why would it not be better for the child to devote their time to studying?
An hour a day of their time?????????????
A few weeks in the summer????????
McDonalds pays crap. It does not give back to soceity, it puts fat on our a$$es.
how is this relevant?
dc,
You are the one who brought up McDonald's and donating 100 dollars as an alternative.
Throwing 100 dollars at a problem does not solve it. And anyone who works at McDonald's would tell you that they work too hard and pay taxes and would not give 100 dollars away so easily. I work an easier job and have $2 dollars a week taken from my check for United Way.
If you are refering to how the fast food industry is affecting our waist line.... You are right it is another discussion.
But what is it you want for your child to learn in life????
DW, my first job was at a fast food restaurant. I learned the value of hard work, customer service, and that money doesn't just grow on trees. I would think those are good things for our children to learn before we send them out into the real world. I was also taught to give 10% of my income to charity. I guarantee the people receiving aid because of my meager giving appreciated it.
There are lessons to be learned from every life experience; we just need to be willing to learn them.
Dragonwoman,
I've read the comments on down and you make good, rational points. Unfortunately the discussion is with a couple recordings from a fantasy version of the 1950's. Things were simpler then, in that never-was world. People, too.
I agree, I will sign up.
Don't wait!
Sign up now!!
Good. The problem is with forcing those that don't agree to sign up.
If you don't agree than pay for your college or send your kids to private school. But guess what most private schools already have this requirement.
from a practical standpoint it would be better just to give them a 4000 tuition credit. part of the plan also call for mandatory junior high and high school servitude? what is your answer to that?
Its not servitude. but I don't understand your question.
Elli:
United Way is a good organization. Little bit comes out of my check each week.
DW,
Thanks for doing that! I support my local UW, too. Like other national orgs, its effectiveness varies by location, so always important to know who you're supporting...
Point is, we don't need to wait for a new mandate to get involved either through donations or volunteerism. Local soup kitchens and food pantries will also be increasingly in need this winter.
No doubt Elli. Unfortunately a mandate seems to be the only thing that has lit a fire under the needs in this country, these states, and counties.
You have to see the amount of young that seem to just sit around and complain there is nothing to do.
We are not talking about a lot of time. 50 hours amounts to about an hour a day out of the work week.
Or even some time during the summer for Habitat for Humanity.
When did community service become a bad thing? If I would have been given the opportunity to do community service in exchange for a tuition break, I would have glady (even though I was doing community service anyway). Besides, I worked with the Americorp program; it's a great experience.
There's nothing wrong with trying to instill hard work and community service into the younger generation. Lord knows we need it!
Kitti, Community service is not a bad thing if your not obligated to do it. But to be told no service no college is bad.
I wish I were able to exchange my $30K in student loans for community service work. Heck, I'd promise my life to service if my kids could go to college for free.
Thats not whats being said: If you want tax payer dollars then earn it.
Sebs, I believe AmeriCorps allows for just such an off-set of your loans.
I thought Americorps was a deferment of loans, not a payment.
Speaking for the right, without being a member of it and as a Christian, which I am a member of ;-) Full time Christians have no problem helping out their neighbor, the community, the homeless man on the street. They want to help in their own way and a Christ-like way, which isn't always simply throwing money at a problem. The only thing the government can help is thru money, programs, and laws. Which makes a bigger impact overall though Me paying an extra $200 in taxes to the government to do the work for me, or me taking that $200 and buying that homeless man a coat, blanket, a couple of meals and sharing a conversation with him? Then driving over to someone's house that was destroyed in a storm, helping clean up and getting a few necessities? Finally stopping by that elderly neighbor's house to see how she is doing and if their is anything I can help her with? Much more good comes from a more localized approach as well as an actual chance of an impact on someones life. Requiring participation takes some of the goodness out of it. It is no longer you duty as a Christian or fellow human being, but a requirement to fulfill the mandate the government put on it's citizens.
What am I missing? I don't see a requirement anywhere.
Maybe the word require in this sentence:
Without any mention of scholarship, tuition, or tax credit.
I still don't understand the problem, parents are not required to send their kids to tax payer funded schools. Our schools stink and parents non involvement is the biggest problem. Get the kids away from facebook and make them contribute to the society that is providing their education.
No government handouts.
Crystal, I would agree that any mandate/requirement would give credit for service offered under the auspices of church/synogogue, etc.
should a school require homework to pass?
is that not work?
now what about . home work on pollution and takign the kids down to the park to clean up trash.. is that wrong as well?
should schools ban homework cause it is forcing your kids to do somethign?
My daughter had to do community service for high school graduation. It is a great idea and it really was easy. She just spent some volunteer time doing things she was interested in.
Wow! I thought Obama would at least wait until he was offficially sworn in until he started down the road of Marxism. This is not North Korea, this is supposed to be the USA! You know, freedom!!! I wish I had children in the middle and high school age so that I could file a class-action lawsuit against this ridiculous idea! Anyone who thinks this is a good idea should leave this country now and go live where to obey "our dear leader" is the way of life. Of course you won't go though. As long as the ideas don't directly infringe on your rights you will go along with it. As soon as his "ideas" step on your freedom or money you will be singing a different song. If Obama said everyone has to serve in the military and that meant you had to go you'd be up in arms and you would be the first ones to call the ACLU!
Send your kids to private schools then, and pay for your child's college on your own, there still is a choice.
Cindi, perhaps everyone should be required to serve in the military. Then, we won't be so quick to send someone else's kids into danger.
Cindi.......you are Un-American. Plain and Simple. And you are not a member of the world at large.
Lazy, uppity, entitled PITA.
Blearc.................I am a product of private schools as is my daughter......she does her part......I do mine.......we pay tuition.....we use financial aide that's available.....I dont sit on my ass and @!$%# and complain while others work.
If you don't take part.......you have no room to complain.
I'm not saying that those who go to private schools don't contribute, actually most private schools contribute a ton to their communities. What I'm saying is tax dollars which is my money, your money, our money should be earned.
I am a product of both and I must say I did more community service work in private school than in public. It was a requirement and therefore, we had no choice in the matter--but it never bothered me.
The only reason I did community service in public school was because I wanted to get into a good college. Then as a college student, every club I joined required certain amount of service hours...It has always been a part of my life and I am thankful.
Cindi - are you actually comparing the US to North Korea based on community service?
Teaching children to work harder to be lazy rather than do something generous for another human being (mandated or not), that is disgusting.
Life is a give and take......and more bountiful and fulfilling if you concentrate on the giving because you want to.
Even though it is required in private school to work hours in support of your school community it encourages the work ethic to take it beyond the school grounds. I pay, 8,500/year for my daughter's tuition. I am only required to provide 10 hours for the entire year....that's it.....that's a little bit longer than a traditional work day spread out over 10 months......or better yet........1 hour per month.
Seriously.....the school asks me for 1 meesley hour per month to do my part. Is that so bad?
You know what that hour brings me? It brings me connection to my daughter's teachers and the administration, it brings me connection to my daughter and her friends....it brings me connection to other parents. I also see instant results as to where my money goes to.
I did not have a child so that I could pawn off their education solely onto the shoulders of teachers and adminstrators.
Work ethic, community service, patriotism & nationalism ...these are our virtues that should be generational..........not
welfare, or handouts or bailouts.
SEBS chuck hagel (r) suggested just that a 2 year service like isreal.
Joules-I know I'll be flamed for this but I really think the draft should be reinistated and ALL loopholes closed. Senator, President, Joe-the-plumber: your kid's serving.
I won't flame you...just reiterate that military leadership strongly disagrees with you. It turns a highly motivated, trained corps into a babysitting service.
Yes, but this idea is asking for 50 hours from Jr. High students. That's a lot more, especially with the amount of homework they already receive (as much as 4-5 hours a night). While I want my child to understand the importance of helping those around him and helping create a better world, I don't want it to come at the expense of his education or his ability to be a kid.
What, by the way, do Jr. High kids get in return for this volunteer work? Do they earn college tuition? Does it go into a college fund? Or do they just get brownie points and a pat on the back? I'm not sure I understand the plan here.
Thanks for your kindness Ellie,
My point is that service to our country should not be limited or forced on a select few. Many kids (not all) join the military because they have no other options, like my my stepbrother. He had limited choices and now the Army is his home (lifer).
We all live here and benefit from those who do serve our country with dignity and respect. There is nothing wrong with community and military service and perhaps if it were mandated, people would have more appreciation for our country.
I think some type of required national service is a great idea. It's about time that we all learned that we have to give back. We have to stop taking America for granted, and be willing to help wherever we can.
lol many conservatives dont think we shoudl offer a free education at all.
many childless conservatives complain about the taxes required to teach other peoples kids
now the conservatives are upset we ask the people getting a free education to pay back the country a little.
you rememerb northern exposure?? yeah many corporations already do this..
Joules, who is it that's getting a free education? I paid for my college education out-of-pocket, and I pay property taxes that go toward maintaining the public school system that my son will be a part of soon.
Are Jr. High students just mooching off the system? Do they not deserve an education unless they spend 50 hours a year volunteering? Did you attend public school? How much time do you spend volunteering, to pay us all back?
I guess the problem I have with this ISN'T the idea of volunteerism, it's the mandating of volunteering, and the attitude that the government is responsible for making people care about their fellow citizens.
I think this is great idea!
It seems only fitting that people should be required to perform some kind of service to their country. It will make us better Americans and more intelligent citizens.
There are more ways to serve than just joining the military and prosecuting an illegal war by killing our peaceful Islamic neighbors, all in the name of BIG OIL.
I'm not too keen on the international slant, though. I think we need to focus on our issues here at home before we try to solve the rest of the world's problems.
What happened to just letting kids, be kids? Now how do we punish minors in the court system when community service normally would have been sentenced?
You all get what you voted for hahaha--- gee how many more empty and masked "solutions" are on the way? Maybe you sheeple should have thought about how any of these "ideas" where going to be paid for next time WAKE UP. LOL LOL
Not quite....it says:
You're right, high school community service is not voluntary. My children graduated high school 2008 and had to complete 50 hours of community service each to graduate. I didn't find this a hardship because I got them service in homeless shelters and food banks. It was a great experience for them and they were able to see how people on the other side lived. Community service should not be voluntary--it should be mandatory.
Too many of today's children feel entitled because parents give them too much that they don't have to work for or earn. Their rooms look like Circuit City which is unfortunate for them because they play with electronic toys instead of reading. Also, with all the noise they can't hear themselves think. Parents use the excuse that they want their kids to have the things they weren't able to have but I suspect the true reason is by providing their children with all their wants, they don't have to spend time with them. I'd rather have my children performing community service then out on the streets getting into things they shouldn't be.
We all should put in 100 or more community service hours each year. Helping others relieves stress, helps improve our outlook on life, helps us loosen those iron clad mindsets, and can help some with weigh loss.
Hear, Hear!!!
My mother flipped out because Arnold Schwarzenegger has his children doing laundry at 7 or 8 years old.
My thought was: Ok so you mean that awful man is making his 8 year old separate colors, put them into a machine, put a cap of soap in it, let the machine do it's job, then take it out and dry them.
You mean he does not just give them $85 a week for breathing.
Hang the bastard!!! LOL =}
A few hours a week or a couple weeks in the summer is not a lot to ask. I wish I had the same option. I did have work study, nearly the same thing accept it could be localized to my point of study.
DW, it's not about asking kids to take personal responsibility for chores at home; many parents do that, and the ones that don't are foolish, in my opinion.
It's about the government stepping in, trying to parent my child for me, as if they know what's better for my child than I do. In your post, you said, "I wish I had the same option". The problem is, this wouldn't be an "option".
I'm all for community service, if it's done on a voluntary basis.
I've got my 2 year old excited to help with the dishes, she gets mad if i don't let her help, gonna keep the vid to prove it to her when she's in her teens "See you love to do chores."
But we aren't talking about my kid or your kid, this is about american societal problems and how to fix them. It's not feasible for the average family to let one parent stay home with the kids. It's not reality that parent keep their kids engaged in social and positive activities to make sure they don't pull off a columbine. It's not reality that the normal kid grows up with a work ethic.
Our current educational and youth socioligical (that a word?) sucks big dusty donkey balls. Now the idea isn't perfect and feasiblility and legal issue need to be worked out. But keeping the kids off my lawn to pick up the park or read to some kids for the amount of time spent in front of "American Idol" in a year. How is that bad?
Yes parents are free to raise spoiled little brats who've never been spanked. But dang nabbit if all of us have to pay for the brats education then they better pick up the dog poop I leave at the park.
Blearc:
dang nabbit I love you, that was priceless!
Fedup: no one is forcing your children to do a damn thing.
And your remark
Well I am happy and all that you have an opinion. That is fine and dandy.
Let me educate you on something.
There are fools having children.
There are children having children
I know of one woman who at 14 had her 1st set of twins, one died at birth. She then had a 2nd set of twins at 16. Those children would be in their 20's by now and no doubt have children of their own.
I know of another woman who on welfare with a couple children marries a man on welfare and they have more children, they kite checks and cheat the welfare system and drag their children through the stores with grease ridden clothes and no sense of self esteem.
I am sick to death of it!!!!
Someone must do something about this.
This is a small, minuscule, tiny effort in the grand scheme of things.
I can not believe there are people bent out of shape over 50 hours High School and 100 hours College, community service. In truth, for $4,000, you should be prepared to give more time. Do you get paid $40.00? I don't. After 15 years of working for the same company, I make just over $16. I would trade places with them in a heart beat.
DW, where in this plan does it specify that if a 12 year old does 50 hours a year of community service, he/she will receive $4,000? The plan doesn't outline ANY true details.
Again, after you're done venting your frustration about bad parents, look at my posts. I am ALL FOR giving back to the community. I am against the government mandating it. By all means, go out and work with these people YOU know who are such bad parents, and try to make a difference in their lives. That's what this is all about.
Perhaps we need to look at the broken welfare system, the crumbling school systems who have somehow forgotten to teach our children the basics, and allow faith-based organizations a little more freedom in reaching some of these at-risk youth. There are all sorts of options to look at before forcing 12 year olds to clean up our mess.
My oldest Daughter is 13 and already volunteers at a nursing home and she loves doing it .I did not ask her to she asked me if she could. anyways I think it is great that Obama's plan makes it easier for her to help and easier for us to send her to collage.
12 years old is Jr High School. Maybe an introduction through Boys or Girls club. Or even church ministries. No I don't see where they get tuition. They do get to build their resume.
Also they get to build
Sometimes the best way out of depression (which is rampant in children entering the teenage "adult in training" years) is to see the world through others eyes.
Fedup: Which part of the mandate is "forcing your 12 year old" to do anything.
Do you see your 12 year old as being that way forever? Believe me that time comes and goes fast.
I agree the basics are missing from education. Religion can have a place, but if you are talking about forcing religion on people, there is another loaded area.
I could trail off into parental control again, but I think I already have "stepped in it " so to speak. No I am not a parent, but that does not mean I don't have a stake in this.
Not trying to start a fight, but a different way of thinking.